Restoration Seed Ecology with Dr Lucy Commander

Michele Ong

Welcome to STEAM Powered where I have conversations with women in STEAM to learn a little bit about what they do and who they are. My guest today is Dr Lucy Commander. Lucy is a Consultant Restoration Seed Ecologist who is passionate about Australian native flora, and has worked with the mining industry on mine site restoration.

She's currently the project manager of the update of the Florabank Guidelines for Native Seed Collection and Use with the Australian Network for Plant Conservation. Join us as we talk about her love of music, gardening, and her work with plant translocation and restoration seed ecology.

Welcome. Thank you for joining me today.

Lucy Commander

Thanks for the invite.

Michele Ong

Yeah, so I feel almost like we need to have two separate sessions. One's to talk about your translocation guidelines, and one to talk about all the stuff with the seed collection and use. There's just so much to cover. Um, yeah. Uh, just a bit of background for everyone else.

Lucy's love of singing.

Michele Ong

Uh, we were in the same year group in high school, and we even did choir together for a very short stint for me. Um. But you just kept that going after high school. How big of a part is being a vocalist to, you know, your life in general?

Lucy Commander

Um, yeah, I just really love to sing, I guess. Um, so after high school I went and lived in London for a year, and so I didn't, I didn't sing. I wasn't in a choir for a year and stopped playing the violin and the viola. Um, and I just, yeah, I just really missed singing.

So as soon as I came back to Perth, um, I joined a choir with one of our other high school friends. Um, and yeah, I've just. Been, yeah, basically singing, I think. Um, I first started singing in a choir when I was in year five, um, and I've just, yeah, loved it ever since.

So it's just kind of, um, for me it's just a– it's relaxation and mindfulness, but it's also really energising. And I love learning new things and listening to beautiful music. And also, like, being in a choir, I like making music with people as well. I'm not really that interested in just doing it by myself.

So–

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

I really like being part of a, a bigger group and also part of a community as well. Um, and then I'm in a jazz band now as well, so that's like, really different to choral singing. I know I was really bad at the beginning, but um, yeah, I've been doing it for a while, so yeah, I'm getting better, I think.

Michele Ong

Oh yeah. That's amazing. So you're doing both the choral and the jazz still at the same time?

Lucy Commander

Um, I haven't been singing in the choir for a while, since I had my second child. It's been a bit difficult for both me and my husband to get to choir practice at the same time. So what I do now is sing, um, just at various events, um, associated with the Royal School of Church Music, the WA branch.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

So I'm Secretary for that at the moment. And so I sing at various events that they have through the year, so that's a bit easier to like go to a gospel music workshop for example. And–

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

So I can just, sort of, still be part of the community, um, but just attend various events rather than a weekly rehearsal commitment 'cause my husband's still in the choir, so...

Michele Ong

Oh nice.

Lucy Commander

Yeah.

Michele Ong

That's brilliant.

Taking part in Eric Whitacre's Virtual Choir.

Michele Ong

And like just recently, you took part in the virtual choir for Eric Whitaker's project too.

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's right. So Eric Whitaker, um, wrote a composition especially for the isolation times.

Um, and so for those who don't know, he's an American composer. Um, and he just composes the most beautiful music. It's, um, uh, it's joyful, it's relaxing, it's like, makes you cry. Um, yeah, I think he's one of my favourite contemporary composers. We did a lot of his works, um, in the choir that I have sung in. So when I found out about this, I was like, oh, I'm gonna try and try and learn the music, um, and record myself.

And the recording sounded terrible, but I think there's so many thousand– there's so many thousand people that it doesn't really matter. And it was just really, um, oh it was just really fun to learn the music and, um, you know, be part of a choir with a conductor-composer who lives in America that I would just never have the opportunity to do otherwise.

Michele Ong

That's amazing.

Lucy Commander

Yeah.

Michele Ong

Yeah, and so timely as well, because I, I looked up the virtual choir and he's been doing this for about a decade now. Just every every now and then just putting out one of those ones.

Lucy Commander

That's right. And I think, um, he sort of said that after the last one that they did that was really big, they were like, oh, there's not really a scope to do anymore, and then of course this came about and all choirs shut, and it was like, well, obviously, you know, it's time to do another one, so–

Michele Ong

That's cool.

Lucy Commander

Yeah, it was great.

Michele Ong

That's great. So there's no release date yet for when that's gonna be out 'cause you only just recorded that last weekend, right?

Lucy Commander

No, I really just recorded it. No, I dunno. I think the production team will have to work pretty hard on, uh, putting it all together, so–

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

I dunno, yeah.

Michele Ong

So there were only, there were about five and a half thousand altos, was it?

Lucy Commander

Yeah. Yeah, something like that. It was crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So it'll be in a cast of millions, so yeah.

Michele Ong

It'll be a while yet whilst they process.

Lucy Commander

That's right.

Michele Ong

Cool. And so we might come back to that later.

The journey to becoming a restoration seed ecologist.

Michele Ong

So since, you know, leaving school, doing, uh. your overseas stint in London, you've now become a consultant ecologist. So how do you become a consultant ecologist?

Lucy Commander

I guess after I came back from London– Um, so I got into science at UWA and deferred that.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

Um, and then I changed my preferences and enrolled in a Bachelor of Science of Horticulture and Viticulture, um, 'cause I wanted to do something a bit more specialist than sort of just science. I, I couldn't really see, um. yeah, I guess where that would take me. And I was really interested in plants, so I thought, well, I'm interested in plants, I should study plants.

So I did.

Um, so I did four years at UWA 'cause it included a year of Honours.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

Um, and then after that I got a job in, uh, for Forest Products Commission working in their research nursery. So I did that for a few months and that was really fun. Um, and then I got a job at Kings Park working as a research assistant in the seed laboratory.

So for my Honours project at UWA, I had worked on seed germination and so, um, I sort of had a few of the skills that– and a little bit of the background, um, that I needed to do a research assistant job in seed biology at Kings Park. Mm-hmm.

Um, so Kings Park does research on, um, native West Australian species, um, horticulture and rehabilitation, um, general, sort of, restoration. So, uh, yeah, that was great. I did that for a year and then I kind of fell into a PhD program, um, as you do. Um, and so my PhD was on, um, mine site restoration and also seed biology. So continuing on from what I'd done for my Honours and all the techniques that they taught me at Kings Park when I was a research assistant.

Um, and then after that, I, uh, was working, doing contract research for mining companies, doing sort of similar sorts of things, restoration ecology and seed biology. Um, and I did that, um, for about eight years or so. Um, so yeah, it was just sort of, um, a bit of a progression really. I don't, um–

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

Um, I certainly didn't have a career mapped out, um, just sort of taking every step as it comes and, um, following up on new and interesting opportunities. Um, so that's kind of how I came to be here.

Michele Ong

And I guess because it's WA you're gonna have a lot of opportunities for, you know, all the mining– mine site restoration stuff because there's so much going on.

The diversity of West Australian flora

Lucy Commander

You know, WA is so interesting. It's such an interesting place to work in with plants and I mean, I know a lot of people who, um, do PhDs, you know, travel all over the world, um, to– to work. Um, and I certainly have gone all over the world to go to conferences and collaborate with people.

But I mean, our flora is just amazing and we've got so many different ecosystems, you know, from the kind of mountains in the southwest, to sandplain flora, to coastal vegetation. We've got river vegetation and riparian zones, um, and then also we've got the whole desert. So I've worked a lot in the desert in the arid zone, and then we've also got the tropics up in the Kimberley. So, you know, it's just so interesting to be able to work in all these different ecosystems and work on different plants.

So yeah, I've been super lucky to have jobs that have taken me around WA to visit some really interesting and, and different field sites. Um, and yeah, people come from all over the world to come and look at WA flora, so, um, yeah, we're pretty lucky that– to be able to work on it here.

Michele Ong

That's pretty brilliant.

Translocation of threatened species

Michele Ong

So leading on from that, with your work in the Australian Network for Plant Conservation, you've helped to edit the last set of the–

Lucy Commander

Translocation Guidelines. Yeah, so, um, so yeah, I started working for the Australian Network for Plant Conservation a couple of years ago, and they are an organisation, um, that really promotes plant conservation in Australia. Um, and they release various, uh, publications.

So one of them is the Guidelines for Plant Translocation in Australia, and that, um, has had two editions so far, but the last edition, um, was produced some time ago. And so there's been a lot of research since then. And um, so it was great to be able to get some funding to do the update for that. So, um, I was project manager and lead editor for that.

And so basically the Translocation Guidelines is a step by step guide to, um, translocation of threatened plants in Australia. And translocation basically means just putting plants from one place into another.

So they might be directly transplanted, so you might dig them up in an area that's gonna have a road or a mine site and then replant them somewhere else, um, where they're not gonna be disturbed. Or it might involve some sort of ex situ propagation or ex situ conservation. So you might collect the seeds in one location, um, put them in a seed bank, um, and then propagate them in the nursery, um, and then plant them out in either the same location, so you might be doing like a population augmentation where you are adding more individuals into a small population. Um, or you might be, uh, making a new population, um, in an area that's suitable, uh, or you might be reinstating them into an area that used to have them, but they've become locally extinct.

So, um, so that's what the Translocation Guidelines is focusing on, um, stepping people through all the processes you need from collecting the germ plasm —so that's the seeds or the cutting material—

Michele Ong

mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

Um, right through from propagation, um, into planning. The site prep and doing the implementation, and then also doing the monitoring, um, and reporting as well as making sure that you have sought indigenous engagement and community involvement and also getting the right licenses and things like that.

So it's a really comprehensive set of guidelines for anybody who's working on basically threatened, um, saving, threatened species from extinction.

Michele Ong

That– this just covers so much ground there.

Lucy Commander

Yeah.

Surveying for threatened species in developments

Michele Ong

So how, when someone starts a project, like say they're trying to build a new road, how do they go about assessing whether they're gonna be ending up having to remove threatened species? Like who do they contact and how do they figure out what needs to be moved?

Lucy Commander

Well, I guess. Usually before any sort of land clearing, there's some sort of process to make an assessment to see, um, what's in the vegetation and determine whether there are any threatened species. Um, I haven't been involved in a lot of clearing permits, but, um, I think that that is the case.

Um, and so then they might make an assessment as to, um, if there are threatened species and they do get approval to clear, um, what they're gonna do with the threatened species if they're going to remove the plants as individuals or whether they're going to, you know, take germ plasm —that is take cuttings— or, um, collect seed from them, um, so that the genetic material from that population, um, can be stored and, and transplanted.

Um, so, so I guess, yeah, that would be sort of the first step is to do an assessment site assessment.

The people involved in threatened species translocation

Michele Ong

Okay. So do they work with, um, like national organisations or are they just small groups who will, who will consult on these things?

Lucy Commander

It's really, yeah, diverse, the people who are involved in threatened species translocation.

Um, so there are government organisations like in WA um, yeah, there's a, a conservation agency. So each state has got a conservation agency that looks after threatened species. Um, and there are also NGOs that either own land and might do translocations on their own land. Um. Australia Network for Plant Conservation, um, is involved through mostly through training and providing workshops and information dissemination, um, and networking.

Um, there's also scientific organisations like, some universities for example, are doing a lot of research on threatened species and they might be threatened species ecologists. So the ecologists are doing a lot of research, um, and they're helping the practitioners with better ways of doing translocations.

And then, yeah, of course, they're all the practitioners. So they might be community groups, they might be local land care groups, catchment management authorities. Uh, there might be local landowners as well, like farmers, for example, um, who might have translocations on their property. So yeah, it's a really interesting and diverse mix of people, um, that I've come in contact with through the Guidelines.

Um, and then of course, there's all, there's also the consultants as well, and practitioners, the people who are doing the on the ground works.

The Florabank Guidelines for seed collection and use

Michele Ong

So the Florabank Seed Guidelines that you're working on now, that's a part of the translocation process. So that focuses specifically on the seed collections and the, uh, getting the cuttings and things that you were talking about before?

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's right. So, um, the Translocation Guidelines were published, um, two years ago now. Um, and so the new project that I'm working on is a, an update of the Florabank Guidelines. And the Florabank Guidelines are the best practice guidelines for native seed use in restoration. So these guidelines, in fact encompass, um, not just threatened species, but also common species.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

So all species in West– in Australia that are being used in, um, ecological restoration. So, uh, and yeah, it basically steps through the process of, um, seed use. So we start with species selection. So which species do you need for restoration? Um, how do you decide which population to collect from? Um, because if there are multiple populations from a– of a species, you might wanna decide if you wanna collect from all of them or just one or the local one, or you know, all of those different types of decisions.

Um, how to collect the seeds as well 'cause there's lots of different techniques for seed collection. Um, how to dry the seeds. How to process them when you bring them back. Um, how to check the quality of seeds as well. 'Cause sometimes you make a seed collection and then you find out they're all empty. Um, so a bit frustrating.

Um, or um, also how to clean them up as well, um, to make sure you're removing all of the sticks and leaves and, uh, non-seed material. How to store them so that they stay alive in storage. 'Cause seeds, like even though they look like they are, kind of, not really doing much, there's actually a lot of stuff going on inside them.

Um, yeah, so you've gotta make sure that you keep them alive while you store them. So drying and storage is, is really critical. So we've got, um, section on that. Um, and then also how to propagate them. So how to get the seeds to germinate. What to do if they're dormant, um, and they don't germinate. Um, what you might need to do pre-treatments, and then also how to do direct seeding, um, and things like that as well.

And then we've got some top tips for people who are purchasing seed and people who are selling seed as well. So, um, yeah, it's a really good update. Um, the guidelines were firstly written in 1999, so there's so much information that, you know, practitioners, research scientists, um, NGOs, and conservation organisations have, you know, really found out about Australian seeds in the last 20 years. So we are hoping with this big team of authors that we are going to, um, help kind of communicate all of that.

Who is behind the guidelines?

Michele Ong

So Florabank, are they, um, are they actually a national seed bank? Uh, their site's currently under construction, so it's hard to tell who or what they are.

Lucy Commander

So Florabank, um, was a consortium between, um, a few different organisations, um, but the funding ran out for them some time ago, so they're termed the Florabank Guidelines, um, but it's Australian Network for Plant Conservation, uh, who is leading this, um, new edition of the Florabank Guidelines. Um, but we are working with a whole lot of other organisations, so CSIRO and um, uh, Greening Australia, um, and a whole bunch of other organisations as well across the country to try and update these guidelines.

Seed banks and storage

Michele Ong

Okay. I'm jumping around a little bit for, because there's so many things to talk about with the seed collections, do they go to national, like sort of, state seed banks?

Lucy Commander

Yeah. So that's–

Michele Ong

Or is it still individual groups? Because the volume that's needed for a lot of the things that it's needed for.

Lucy Commander

That's right.

There are lots of different seed banks around the country.

So, um, where I still work in Kings Park, they have a seed bank there, um, and that's used for research purposes and also to propagate species for the gardens. Um, in other seed banks, so seed– commercial seed collectors also might have some sort of seed storage facility, and these vary depending on the end use of the seeds and how long you wanna store them for.

So if you only need to store them for a couple of months because you collect them, you clean them, you dry them, and then you're gonna onsell them, um, then they might have quite different storage facilities to seeds that might need to be stored for 10 or more years.

Um, so the conservation seed banks around Australia are in a network and, um, a lot of them contribute duplicate collections of their seeds to the Millennium Seed Bank in the UK. And that's an underground seed vault, um, I think kept at -18 degrees Celsius. So, um, yeah, duplicate collections of Australian plant seeds have gone over there, um, for conservation.

Flora vs food crops

Michele Ong

And the seed banks that participate in this, do they only take care of the Australian flora? Or do they also do food crop kind of seeds as well?

Lucy Commander

Um, there are also seed banks in Australia that are doing food crops, um, and also interestingly, they're starting to get into crop wild relatives as well. So they're looking at seeds and um, of uh, yeah, wild relatives of, of food crops, so wild relatives of, you know, grains like wheat and things like that. So, um, that's quite interesting where there's a bit of a crossover and collaboration between, yeah, the people who are working on native seeds and the people who are working on agricultural seeds.

Um, so that's really interesting as well.

Intervention of bushfire affected areas for restoration

Michele Ong

So with say the bushfires, we learn at school that Australian flora works well with the bush fires, for lack of a better way of explaining it, because they use the heat fires and from that it helps to kickstart their own growing cycle. So how do you assess or determine at what point these natural areas need the assistance and and intervention?

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's right. So I mean, the Australian flora, um, some ecosystems are well adapted to fire, so plants have got all sorts of really interesting adaptations that help them, um, cope and regenerate with fire. So, um, and some of them, you know, require it in fact, for their life cycle.

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

So. Some trees are just, are able to resprout from their buds. They might resprout from underground tubers. Um, there are other plants that are stimulated to flower after, after bush fires as well. So they, they require that that cue, um, in order to flower and then set seed. And there's others that germinate, um, immediately after fires because the smoke in the fires stimulate seed germination, um, and then they complete their whole life cycle within a few years. And afterwards, once they set seed and the seed lies, um, in the seed bank waiting for the next fire.

So in, in some ecosystems, yeah, fire is, um, required for some species lifecycle, uh, and also, yeah, species have really interesting adaptations on, on how they regenerate.

But yeah, as you said, some ecosystems aren't resilient, um, to fire because either they've been burnt too many times. So what might happen is if, um, an ecosystem is burnt every year, for example, um, the species, they don't have enough time to be able to flower and set seeds, and so the seed bank becomes depleted.

All the seeds are germinating, but there are no flowers, and then consequently no seeds to be able to replace them. Um, maybe particularly young growth might not be resilient and they, you know, they might not resprout and things like that. So, um, certainly in areas where burns are too frequent, um, then the ecosystem may lose its resilience.

And then others where they might be degraded. So for example, if there's been a lot of grazing through perhaps, um, uh, you know, um, sheep or goats or, uh, perhaps feral animals, um, then yeah, there just might not be enough seeds in the seed bank to be able to regenerate.

Um, so that's why I guess the first step really is just to do, do a survey, is do a plant survey to see, um, what's there, what's coming back after the fire, um, and then hopefully have an intact reference system that you might be able to compare and say, oh, we would've expected these plants to be here and they're not. Um, so in that case, um, human intervention might be required.

Sometimes human intervention might be required, maybe just in weed control or maybe fencing to keep stock out, um, and there's no sort of active restoration required, but in other cases, um, yeah, the, the area may be so degraded that you may need to have seed input, and whether that's direct seeding or whether that's planting seedlings that have been grown in a nursery, um, that just really depends on the ecosystem and the species.

Management of areas under regular fire threat

Michele Ong

Right. So for the areas that keep getting burned every year, how, how do you help those recover? Because even if you have interventions, they're just gonna get destroyed the following fire.

Lucy Commander

Um, well I guess it does depend a bit on threat management and if you are able to control the fires. Um, in some other way.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

Um, but yeah, it is, it is a significant problem and I think there are a lot of fire ecologists, and I'm not one of those, I am, I'm a seed ecologist, so, um, you know, I study the effects of fire on seeds.

Um, so really in terms of managing threats, um, that's really something for yeah, fire ecologists to help out land managers to be able to do that and–

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

Try and understand better understanding of fire intervals, um, I think is certainly something that's really important so that people really know, you know, what an, um, what ideal fire intervals might look like. Um, because yeah, some ecosystems might be adapted to burning every year, um, and some not so much.

Sourcing seeds for restoration

Michele Ong

Right. Okay. And so for the restoration of these areas, it's going to be a bit different for the ones with the mine sites. Where do they source like all the seed to cover that much ground if they needed to actually do a restoration?

Lucy Commander

Yeah, look, seed sourcing is a massive issue. Um, ANPC just put out a publication recently.

Um, uh, it was a seed survey and yeah, one of the issues is seed supply. Like, um, you know, some– some people just can't get enough seed and then they can't get enough seed of the species that they want. Um, so a lot of seed is sourced through wild collection, particularly in Australia, um, a lot of seed is sourced through wild collection, and that can be really difficult because a lot of our ecosystems are already under stress.

You know, like we said, they might have frequent fires, they might have been degraded through grazing. Um, and so they're kind of, they're already under stress. Um, and also a lot of clearing has occurred, and in some places there just really aren't that many remnant populations to collect from. Or perhaps they might be in national parks or you know, places where, um, people can't, um, or have trouble getting permits to go and collect.

So yeah, it is really difficult to source the volumes of seed required for landscape scale restoration. Um, one of the ideas that people are having is to use seed production areas. Um, so you can go and collect seed from the wild and then grow it under kind of crop conditions. Um, so seed production areas are a way of, I guess, bulking up, um, seed to then be able to use in restoration.

So that's one option. Um, another option is just to get smarter about using seed. So instead of using huge volumes of seed, um, if you store it better, if you are able to pretreat it, perhaps, um, if you understand, um, what the limitations are for recruitment in these ecosystems, then you might be able to use less seed, um, because you might have a higher proportion of those seed germinating.

So yeah, a lot of research and field trials are needed to try and optimise seed use in the field. Um, optimise storage conditions so you're not losing seed before you even plant it. Um, so yeah, I guess, um, yeah, look, scale of seed supply is a huge issue and there are a lot of, um, different areas in which the processes can be improved, um, to try and address that.

Applicability of local guidelines domestically and globally

Michele Ong

Okay. So how much of, like, because, well, I guess there's a lot of stuff that carries between different areas. Is a lot of the research very specific to Australian flora or is quite a lot of it still quite, um, I guess transferrable between other ecosystems?

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Um, so there are a lot of general principles that the global, uh, restoration community is grappling with.

Um, so for example, like how do you define a reference ecosystem? Um, a lot of these big questions, um, people around the world are trying to ask. So, you know, how do you go out and, um, define, you know, the targets of restoration. Which species do you wanna plant? And, and all that kind of stuff.

So a lot of those general principles are actually, um, sort of talked about internationally. Um, for seed ecology, there's also a lot of international literature. So for example, um, different things that are able to, you know, what seeds need to germinate. What different types of things will stimulate seed germination? A lot of those are, can be, um, gleaned from the international literature or talking to people overseas.

Um, so in some respects that's great. You know, we're part of this kind of global community of researchers and practitioners who are trying to solve these problems. Um, but then at a national, and then also at a local level, we also have to experimentally determine those, um, on our species.

So, um, while we can glean a lot of the, um, general concepts from, um, the international literature and talking to international colleagues, um, yeah, then you still have to do the work, um, in the ecosystems and on our species to make sure that, you know, um, uh, it's tailored to our needs, I guess.

The diversity of Australian flora adding complexity to the task

Michele Ong

Okay. And with how diverse the Australian flora is, does that make it more difficult or less difficult to get that kind of level of detail you need.

Lucy Commander

Oh, look, I think it, I think it makes it really difficult.

Um, yeah, often when I was doing seed germination experiments, I'd be the first person ever to work on that particular species. Um, and there are just so many species, you know, in WA alone, let alone the whole of Australia, that, you know, um, it, it, it is really challenging, um, because we do have quite a big flora.

Um, so yes, I, I think that is quite difficult. Um. So, but you know, with that challenge, it also makes it really interesting because even like as an Honours student, you can actually work on something nobody's worked on before. So, you know, there's great opportunities for doing really interesting, um, science and also doing really great practice as well in the field, um, because, you know, um, our flora is unique and beautiful. So, um, yeah.

Florabank Guidlines publication timeline

Michele Ong

That's brilliant. So how long is it gonna take for to put together this new edition of the Florabank Guidelines?

Lucy Commander

Um, well, it's about a two year project, so I started in October. So we are partway through drafting at the moment. We've got all of the, the modules drafted.

Uh, we've got about 50 people from around Australia, um, from science and practice, government, universities, um, so they're representing the, uh, the whole spectrum of the people involved in the seed industry. Um–

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

And so, yeah, they've been amazing in contributing their time and their knowledge for this project.

So, uh, the next step is, um, to, yeah, refine all the drafts and get it published. And then after that we're gonna disseminate the information through workshops as well. So, um, hopefully we'll have a national workshop and, and some state and local workshops as well to, to, um, tell people about what's new, um, and often, you know, people are really amazing specialists in their field, um, and it's great that the Florabank Guidelines are able to tell people about the whole seed industry.

And so people are able to learn about other aspects of the industry that they might not already be involved in. So yeah, hopefully, um, when we're allowed to run workshops and do interstate travel, um, we will be able to, um, kind of communicate that and educate people, but not just, um, educate them, I think, sometimes the workshops are really great because they bring people together and it's often just those conversations over morning tea or over lunch and people network and meet each other, you know, you get a whole bunch of like-minded people in the same room and, you know, organically all of those kind of conversations, um, start to arise, and, um, so I think, um, that'll be a really good part of the project as well is, is that kind of, um, that networking opportunity as well.

The collaborative nature of developing the guidelines

Michele Ong

Yeah. And because there's so many areas that it touches, it's just people from everywhere doing all sorts of things in the general sort of area.

Lucy Commander

That's right.

Michele Ong

And they're all doing different work.

Lucy Commander

Yep. Well, I think it's just a great opportunity really to be able to kind of give back to the community, both the, um, threatened species community through the Translocation Guidelines and the seed community, um, and then supporting the restoration community. So everybody who's doing restoration, whether that's, you know, tree planting or whether that's, you know, on their, their local, their local land, um, and volunteers as well.

So, yeah, I really, I really enjoy being able to communicate new information and, and give back. Um, but also I'm learning a lot as well because, you know, there's 50 specialists and they all have different, um, different areas of expertise and different experience to me, and they come from different parts of the country.

So it's been great to learn from them. Um, I'm absorbing a lot of knowledge, um, as well. So yeah, it's just a really great project to be involved in.

Michele Ong

So many opportunities for, you know, just growing your knowledge in other areas that you wouldn't normally be touching.

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's right.

Case and field work contributions from the community

Michele Ong

Have you encountered any work that's been incorporated into either this or the Translocation Guidelines where it hasn't been formally academically researched, but it's just anecdotal or just from experience from the people working on the ground doing the work.

Lucy Commander

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's lots of different ways in which people can communicate, um, their knowledge. Um, and so obviously the academic literature is just one of those things.

So what we did for the Translocation Guidelines is we actually invited a whole lot of people to write case studies.

Michele Ong

Mm-hmm.

Lucy Commander

And we published them in APC, which is the bulletin for the Australian Network for Plant Conservation.

So we had people who were local landowners, volunteer groups and things like that, submitting case studies, and they just wrote about what they did and what they found. And so that was a great way for them to be able to share their knowledge, um, as well as, you know, just referencing things from the literature.

So, um, yeah, that's, um, and we're also inviting that for the Florabank Guidelines. If people wanna write a case study, then we're able to reference that within the Florabank Guidelines as well. And often we get people to present case studies at workshops as well. And that's really good because they're able to talk about their current research and don't necessarily have to wait until the whole lot is published.

Or they can present an experimental design or a field trial and say, this is our plans for our field trial, you know, does anybody wanna provide any comments? So, um, I think, yeah, workshops as well are really great for communicating information. Um, uh, particularly, yeah, before, um, it's um, you know, 'cause sometimes the lag time is quite long to wait for things to come out in the literature.

So yeah.

Michele Ong

Might start wrapping up this part and I guess we can start talking about some of the extra questions that I've mentioned to you.

Lucy Commander

Oh yeah, sure.

Michele Ong

So, yeah.

Bonus Question 1: What hobby or interest do you have that is most unrelated to your field of work?

Michele Ong

So what hobby or interest do you have that is most unrelated to your field of work?

Lucy Commander

Well, I guess we've already talked about singing, um, that's kind of, um, unrelated.

Yeah. So, um, yeah, I was in a choir for a long time and now I'm involved– well, I've been also involved in the Royal School of Church Music for a long time, since I was a little kid. Um, and yeah, the band that I'm involved in, I'm not sure how long I've been in that now. It's probably at least 10 years.

Um, so yeah, definitely, music's a huge part of my life and, and just really enriching and I've met so many lovely people through it as well. It's great to be part of the music community in Perth.

Um, um, other things that I like to do, I mean, I like to garden a lot, um, and. It's kind of related. I mean, I do have a degree in horticulture, but um, yeah, I didn't specialise in vegetable crops, so, um, and then, uh, yeah, recently I've started to get into house plants and tropical plants and I kind of, I actually didn't really learn much about them at uni either, so, um, had to teach myself a lot about that.

And I like propagating stuff. So, you know, propagate natives or propagate tropical plants and house plants and succulents as well has been a recent obsession as well. Um, so yeah, I've um, yeah, got a, got a lot of plants in my garden to keep me busy. There's always something to do.

Michele Ong

Definitely.

Lucy Commander

Um, teaching my kids a lot about plants as well, which has been really fun and also really rewarding as well to be able to just do simple things like plant sunflower seeds and show the kids the whole life cycle of a sunflower within a couple of months.

And, you know, watching them barefoot in the veggie patch, like just eating bok choy straight from the veggie patch. So, um, so yeah, I guess I get a lot of joy out of that as well, um, just being able to watch things grow and be able to eat what I grow and sit under the shade of trees that I've grown. Um, yeah, I get a lot of enjoyment out of that as well.

Michele Ong

Yes. Definitely pretty satisfying being able to grow things in your garden that you can eat.

Lucy Commander

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I certainly have nowhere near self-sufficient, but you know, it, uh, it supplements what we buy, so.

Michele Ong

Yeah, definitely.

And it's good that your kids are getting so into it.

Like, my daughter was watching us in the garden and she was like, what are you doing? Like, well, we're planting things and then we're gonna be able to eat them later. And she's like, all right. And I, our snow pea started, uh. sprouting. So we, I've got her, one of the snow peas gave it to her and she looked at it and she said, what is it?

I went to, it's a snow pea. It's crunchy, you can eat it, it's sweet. And she just took a bite, looked at me skeptically, and went, it's too crunchy, and then walked away. So.

Well, clearly not as interested.

Lucy Commander

My daughter eats most things from our garden. Um, but she tried radishes the other day and she was pretty excited about that 'cause she'd never had a radish straight from the garden before. And then she was just the look in her face, she was like, no. I was like, okay, we found the one thing that you don't like. Um, she'll eat bok choy and kale, but, um, yeah, the radishes, she was like, no.

Michele Ong

Too peppery?

Lucy Commander

Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Ong

Oh, well, she'll learn.

Lucy Commander

It's all right.

Bonus question 2: Which childhood book holds the strongest memories for you?

Lucy Commander

Next one. Which childhood book holds the strongest memories for you?

Um, I read a lot at school, uh, when I was a kid, um, a lot. Um, so I just, I don't really have a particular book that holds strong memories, but I did read a lot of science fiction, I guess a lot of dystopian fiction as well, so I think probably John Wyndham is one of the authors that I remember reading a lot of, and George Orwell and, and, authors like that.

So, um, yeah, I don't know if, um, it's funny because often people think of scientists as non-creatives and maybe people don't read fiction, but that's just totally not the case. Um, but maybe that's a bit of a crossover, is that, yeah, I used to read a lot of science fiction. Um, now not so much because I read a lot of science, uh, so when I read fiction, uh–

Michele Ong

It's real, it's proper fiction.

Lucy Commander

That's right. So I'm still reading a lot. Um, but yeah. Um, but I think it was really good to, um, read a lot when I was a kid. I think also one of the misconceptions I had about being a scientist was that I would never have to write, uh, and I was really wrong.

Michele Ong

That's all lies. It's all lies.

Lucy Commander

Yeah. I thought, oh yeah, you just write up, you know, like lab reports, 'cause that's all we used to do in science is just write lab reports. I was like, oh, I just write lab reports.

Michele Ong

Just fill in fields. That's it.

Lucy Commander

Um, that's right. All you have to do is just write dot points and draw a graph and, um, I was really wrong.

So I think, yeah, it's really lucky that I love reading, um, because yeah, now I have to read a lot for work and I write a lot as well. So, you know, I'm writing books, I'm writing for websites, I'm writing for social media, um, I'm, you know, writing a lot of emails, so communicating directly with people and lots and lots of people across Australia and around the world. So I think, um, yeah. It seems like reading is, kind of, fiction is unrelated to science, but it is.

Um, also, I think, um, one of the interesting things about scientific publications is people think that, you know, maybe they could be a bit dry and they're like, I just used to think they were lab reports, but then somebody once said, oh no, actually scientific paper is a story.

You need to tell a story. Um, you need to be able to engage the reader and you need to take them through from the familiar to the unfamiliar. Um, and so, yeah, I guess, you know, obviously writing scientific literature is, is different to fiction, but it it is similar in a way. And that's that you're–

Michele Ong

It's still narrative.

Lucy Commander

That's right. And you're communicating. Um, and so I think, yeah, that's, that's really interesting.

Michele Ong

Yeah, it's a good way of looking at it because nobody thinks about writing papers as being particularly interesting as a part of what they have to do. It's an obligation.

Lucy Commander

Yes. I mean, some people, some people spend, you know, their Friday nights writing papers or their Sunday mornings in bed writing.

I'm usually disrupted by children at that time. So–

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

It's, um, but um, but yeah, other people do, you know, initially perhaps think of it as, um, you know, something that's formulaic, but in actual fact, yeah, it's a story.

Michele Ong

Yeah, that's great. Need to think about that more.

Bonus question 3: What advice would you give someone who would like to do what you do, and what should they ignore?

Michele Ong

And lastly, what advice would you give someone who wants to do what you do and what advice should they ignore?

Lucy Commander

Um, well, I guess Um, well firstly for, for high school students, like I, I didn't actually know that my job existed when I was in high school. I mean, I, I think I did, yeah, I did year 10 work experience at a mine site, and I did do some mine res– restoration, so I kind of knew about this, like mine rehab. Um, and I just assumed that you studied environmental science and then you did mine rehab.

Um, I didn't know what seed biology was. I didn't know you could study seeds at university. I didn't know you could do a PhD in seeds. I didn't know that you could travel around the world and go and talk at conferences and visit other universities and seed banks and things like that.

So, um, I think keeping an open mind, um, and just following what you're passionate about and not thinking about things in terms of, you know, what's your favourite subject? Like, people used to ask that all the time at school. What's your favourite subject?

Michele Ong

It was quite an awful question.

Lucy Commander

Really?

Michele Ong

Like, it doesn't help.

Lucy Commander

No, I mean, you know, and one of my favourite subjects was French, like, and I certainly didn't study that at uni, although I have been to France.

Um, so. Yeah, I think it's quite, it's quite useless. Um, so I think a better question to ask yourself and also to ask others like, don't annoy high school students, be like, oh, who's your favourite teacher?

It's like, what are you passionate about? Like what are you interested in? Is it animals? Is it the human body? You know, is it the weather? Like, you know, it's like stuff for me, and for me it was plants. I just really like watching plants grow and I find 'em really interesting. Um, I think they're really beautiful and, um, I just wanna learn more about them and I want to go to places where I get to see plants. Um, so yeah, for me, that's, that's what I find really interesting.

And I like talking to people about plants and I like writing about them, reading about them. So I think, um, for high school students, definitely like, find your passion, find what it is you're interested in, and, and go and just explore that.

Um, you know, I'm also passionate about music and I have no illusions that I'm gonna ever get paid to be a singer, so, you know, I guess still get to do it, um, so yeah. Um. So yeah, find, find out what you're passionate about and then hopefully if you're good at it, somebody might pay, do it.

Um, and I think also, um, don't stress about what uni course you ch– you choose because yeah, really interestingly, the people who did horticulture and viticulture with me have gone into really diverse careers.

So a lot of us have studied, um, you know, essentially the same subjects, but we've gone in all different directions. Um, and, uh, interestingly, people who've done really different degrees to me have ended up in the really similar job to me. So I think, um, while it's important to choose a course, whether that's at uni or at TAFE or whatever, um, you know, that's important, but it's not like the– the be all and end all.

Michele Ong

Yeah. It's not going to be the thing that dictates where you end up.

Lucy Commander

That's right. I mean, unless you are doing a career that leads into, um, you know, a, a job like, you know, um, being a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer where, you know, you do have to go, you know, do a specific degree to get a specific job.

The type of jobs that I've had, um, you know, there's, there's a diversity of different degrees that you, you could choose, um, to get into that. So, you know, don't stress about that. Um, yeah, just follow what you're interested in and, and what you're good at and, um, see where it takes you.

Michele Ong

That's cool. That's great advice.

The Eden Project

Michele Ong

And side note, when you were in London, did you end up going to the Eden Project?

Lucy Commander

I have been to the Eden Project. Um, yeah, I didn't go, I'm not sure if it was built the year that I lived there. Um. But yeah, I went, um, to the Eden Project. We took, um, our baby son when, when he was little. He's now six.

Michele Ong

Yeah.

Lucy Commander

Um, but yeah, when he was about four and a half months old for some reason, we decided to go to London. Um, my dad's from London, so we went and visit our family there. Um, and we did, we went to the Eden Project, so that was really cool.

Um, so the Eden Project, for those who don't know, is like, um, it's actually built in a disused coal mine, which is kind of really interesting for somebody who's got a background in mining restoration.

Um, it's a really expensive way of, um, yeah, putting plants back into an old mine. Um, and basically they've built these climate controlled domes. So they've got a dome for tropical flora. They've got a dome for Mediterranean flora, which was really cool to go and see, you know, Australian plants in, um, in the UK and an old coal, coal mine.

Um, so yeah, I thought it was really interesting. It's really well laid out. It's really creative. Um, I guess, you know, gardening, um, and plants is a, you know, it's part science and it's part arts. Arts because it's, you know, it's creative and, um, and you know, they, um, you know, they just have really beautiful gardens and really interesting plants and also a lot of, um, interesting science to learn about different plants and different ecosystems.

So yes, I have been there, but, um, not during my gap year.

Michele Ong

Yeah. So I went myself when they, I think they still only had two out of the three domes.

Lucy Commander

Oh, wow.

Michele Ong

So it was really early on, and all of the plants, it was still fairly new, but, some of the larger domes were like, yeah, I think the large dome, I think was the arid dome–

Lucy Commander

Mm-hmm.

Michele Ong

That was, you know, quite well established. It was like, yep, seen that, know that one. But yeah, it was, it's really good to see and I would love to get back again to see it– see it now it's properly established.

Lucy Commander

Yeah. I think West Australians, we often take our flora for granted, um, don't realise that actually people around the world, you know, come here or go to the Eden Project to see our amazing plants, so yeah.

Michele Ong

Yeah. It's exotic for everyone else.

Lucy Commander

Yeah.

Michele Ong

Okay. Well thank you for that. That has been really interesting and yeah, definitely still feels like we'd need another session to cover so much of the other stuff that you've been talking about. Um, but if anybody else would like to learn more about what Lucy does and maybe reach out to Lucy, uh, you can find her on Twitter at @Lucy\_Commander, um, and on LinkedIn, which I'll be providing in the show notes as well as through the ANPC site. So that's www.anpc.asn.au.

So Lucy, thanks so much for this. This has been amazing and yeah, I've been well learned today. So thanks so much for that.

Lucy Commander

No problem. I'm glad you found it interesting, thanks.

Michele Ong

Yeah. Great. Thank you. As Lucy mentioned, Australian ecosystems are so diverse and a lot of work goes into the conservation and restoration of these areas. And not just due to urban development, and mining, and bush fires. Honestly, I'm also now really curious about fire ecology as well as the inclusion of wild relatives of food crops into the global seed vaults.

Nerdy. Yes. Fascinating. Also, yes.

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