The astronomic potential of transferable skills and the place of space on earth with Asha Stabback

Michele Ong

There's a place for everyone in space. It's an extension of our planetary ecosystem and just as multidisciplinary as the world around us. The key is to identify your passions and transferable skills so you can shape your work and the value that you can bring to your new environment. Asha Stabback is Translation and Impact Manager at ICRAR, the International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research, at the University of Western Australia in Perth.

Join us as we speak about cultivating your transferable skills, embracing your network, and how working with the skies above supports the land below.

I'm Michele Ong, and this is STEAM Powered.

Michele Ong

Good morning Asha.

Thank you so much for joining me today on STEAM Powered. I'm really looking forward to finally catching up with you and having a chat about your journey.

Excellent. Thank you for having me. And yeah, I think it's a timely discussion. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's been really great because you've been allowing me in to seeing all the cool stuff going on at ICRAR and really, really looking forward to hearing more about the International Centre for Radio and Astronomy Research Such a mouthful with the acronyms.

Asha Stabback

Yeah. Yeah.

Cultivating a career around community and engagement.

Michele Ong

Yeah, so we'll get straight into it. You actually started out in marketing, human resources, and industrial relations, so I'd love to know more about what you thought you'd be doing with that career.

Asha Stabback

Yeah, I think, I mean like any 17 year olds trying to work out what they wanna do next, I knew I wanted to go to uni, but beyond that, didn't really know what that would look like. And choosing what I was actually going to study was a bit of a process of elimination. Like I knew that I didn't wanna do medicine, wasn't really interested in law, had ended up dropping physics, and things like that. So I was like, well, I'm not gonna do engineering.

So then a process of elimination chose commerce. 'Cause I was like, well that's the most generic thing.

Michele Ong

Flexible though.

Asha Stabback

It is, it is. And it's interesting seeing where some of my uni friends and things like that have ended up with their careers.

I'm like, how did we do the same subjects? And you are now like doing– one's at the bank doing credit risk, like derivatives or something like that. You know, it's quite crazy where it can take you.

But I quite like that more general approach. And then my first job was working at Rio Tinto and I was sort of in a generalist admin role.

But it was very much I was always interested in people, and people and behaviour, and how can you support their development. And so, from the very beginning, I got an opportunity to work on their leadership development program. And I think that that theme, like a common thread, is that development focus.

But like many of us over here in Perth, spent many years in, uh, mining, and then sort of energy and the utility sector, and things like that. But it was always that focus on people and development. And for me, that also then gave me an opportunity to continue learning and growing within myself as well.

Michele Ong

That's really cool because I was gonna ask about that because a lot of your career path seems to have led down the community and engagement side of things, and I guess for you it was an intentional choice to keep pushing down that thread and it was a cultivated direction. So when you're actually heading more obviously into community engagement roles, how do you get into that space?

The holy trinity: cultivate your interests, transferable skills, and network to shape your career

Asha Stabback

Yeah, I think the biggest shift came for me going from more HR with a bit of learning and development, to actually getting a role within learning and development, and then organisational development as well. So for me, it just– I kept inching towards these different areas that I was wanting to do.

But some of these areas, particularly back then, were less clearly defined. And so it was also opportunities where I was like, well, this is what I'm interested in, so therefore I would shape my role to have a focus on that as well. And then also when you're working in those sorts of roles, you're meeting a lot of different people, so you're engaging across a broad range of different stakeholders.

And so from that, I think that that's sort of where I cultivated a really strong network and just followed my interests. But always being very clear on the skills that I actually have and where they transferred into that sector as well.

Recentring when life happens

Asha Stabback

And it definitely wasn't a linear career path. I mean, I was constantly just getting contract roles and then there'd be a slight downturn in the economy, or there would be a change, so I had multiple positions being redundant over the years and personal changes as well, you know, trying to navigate parenthood, and then having to travel a lot for work.

So I think all of those things, it was always trying to keep coming back to like, well, what am I actually good at? What are my skills? And where can I add value? Where something that's actually going to make me get excited about the work that I do? So, that's really where I kept building on those experiences.

Learning to embrace (and harness) the power of your networks

Asha Stabback

And always being open to different things along the way. And when I created Power of Circles, which was a networking group, that came about from just being really conscious about what are some of the messages that are almost coming to me. So around that time a friend had lost her mother to cancer and she chose to do the Ride to Conquer Cancer, and from that do fundraising. And I was like, well, I can't really give very much money, but maybe collectively we could contribute to that.

I'd also read _Lean In_, by Sheryl Sandberg and had been involved in her Lean In Circles and so again, was sort of seeing how a collective focus and that network around you can actually support your learning and your growth. And then people just kept saying to me, oh, Asha, you've just got such a big network. You're always referring people on to other people, or you should meet this person or do this or do that.

So I just thought, okay, well I'll get everyone together and then invited them to bring someone else along. And we did some fundraising and just spoke about Lean In Circles, spoke about the fundraising that we were doing for the Ride to Conquer Cancer, as it was called at the time.

I think about 60 women came along. It was the most terrible weather, which for those that are in Perth, know that that means generally people won't come along to an event. But they all came and then they asked, well, when's the next one? And so it really grew organically from that, of getting different speakers, different topics. It was just such a gorgeous network of people.

BubDesk and building support and community for working parents

Asha Stabback

And then when I wasstill sort of doing that, and then another contract had came to an end, I met someone who was saying to me they wanted to create a workspace with a creche to help particularly working parents. And at the time I was working out of one of the tech hub sort of startups here, which was predominantly men.

And I had been thinking, well, where's my network of like-minded, predominantly women, but even more purpose-driven rather than tech-driven or something like that. And that's what led me to starting up BubDesk with Meg as well.

So that was quite an interesting journey in terms of the startup world and raising money and trying to convince the powers that be in the different organisations that we really do need to address the barriers to parents continuing on in the workplace, but also nurturing those that want to be close to the children, or looking for more flexible options to add into the mix of balancing parenting and work.

So it was a bit of an interesting journey, but it was just also being in tune with what people were saying around me, things that were interesting to me, and then also then trying to make sure that I could earn enough money to pay the bills in amongst it all.

Tapping into potential by knowing your skills and identifying the skills of others

Michele Ong

As well as the most important part.

Yeah, but you raised so many good points about that because it is about being able to see where your skillsets are transferable and translatable into other contexts. Because here, yes, in WA, we are heavily focused on resources and they're trying to work on that.

But it almost seems that a lot of people hone their skills for that sector and then during downturns they become lost as to what they can do in the meantime until it picks up again. And all of the skills that we do pick up are transferable, it's just trying to figure out what it is that we are good at.

And that's not necessarily industry specific.

And even the network part of things as well. Like that's also really important because everyone we know does something different or is somewhere different, and it's such a great way of getting perspective about not just your own potential, but the potential of the people around you.

You are more than what you do.

Asha Stabback

Yeah, it's something that we face in the academic sector, which I moved into after BubDesk and these researchers have just honed their focus to a particular area and if they don't secure more research funding, then that pretty much comes to an end, particularly if they're wanting to stay in a, you know, for example, to stay in Perth.

And I know we'll probably get into it a bit later, but working with a lot of the astrophysicists, if they want to stay in that science field, if they're not working at UWA or Curtin– We do have a growing sector now with CSIRO and SKAO, and then another data centre, AusSRC, but there's limited opportunities for them and it's really challenging, and I think that also comes when people almost wrap their identity around their job.

Whereas I've always been clear that that, you know, it's something that I do, and I love, and I'm passionate about the different things, but I'm not, that's not just me. I don't tend to just introduce myself as, you know, oh, I'm a translation and impact manager, besides the fact that no one would actually know what on earth that actually is.

But it's, you know, I've got a lot of interests and things outside of that. But I can certainly appreciate for those who, you know– what makes them brilliant at their particular area of research is not necessarily the same sort of skills that help them to transfer those skills or look more broadly into another sector.

And that is part of my role, is helping them on that journey and looking at ways that we can support students and researchers. But at the same time, also working with industry to say, Hey, you're having trouble with wrangling lots of data, or whatever it might actually be, we've got people that are highly skilled in these areas that are doing some really interesting projects and sure they might be studying black holes, or galaxy formations, or whatever it might actually be, but they're wrangling big amounts of data and able to, you know, theorise and conceptualise some pretty incredible things that are fairly intangible at times.

So, I think that that's also about that network and recognising that not everyone's going to have those strengths, but there are others that do have those strengths, and to being open to at least partnering with them to see how that you can transition into a different area or what you can learn from someone else.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. And that's one of the biggest issues that I keep hearing again and again about academia and research, because the number of roles are limited. As you advance in your career, it gets even fewer. And then it's a rough ride for a lot of them because in some countries you can't work one job in this area.

You have to work multiple jobs to be able to make your living. And depending on where you are, what field you're in, there's almost this expectation that you have to uproot your life and move somewhere else in order to keep continuing your career progression.

And, you know– gonna keep going onto all these other issues like the two-body problem and all of the stuff about logistics of making a living in this space where people think that it might be really easy 'cause you're specialised. But that's almost also the problem.

The beginnings of ICRAR and hiring with couples in mind

Asha Stabback

Yeah, it's one of the things when ICRAR was first established.

So the reason it came to be was part of a bid to host the SKA, the Square Kilometre Array here in WA. And so that was, well, we've just celebrated our 15th anniversary, so over 15 years ago when they were talking about it and they said, well, we need to have like a science centre and research being done here.

And at the time there really was very little astrophysics research being done in Perth. And some brilliant astrophysicists from around the world got together and we're like, okay, well we are going to make Perth the place. And I think some of them were from here originally as well and they actually recruited couples.

That was part of the recruitment strategy was, alright, we need to get people to move here and seeing where they could bring over, you know, couples into it. But it would be a lot more challenging to do that now because we haven't got the same amount of funding.

Whereas at the start it was like, okay, you know, the state government were like, well, here's some funding, and there was a freedom to do what was needed to really set up the research centre.

But we still have a number of couples that are working with us. For many of them, people wouldn't even know that they are a couple and they have different research strengths or different research areas.

But I think that that's been part of the success with establishing the research centre to begin with. But then I also see some of the younger ones coming through whose partners are located elsewhere and they're juggling essentially a long distance relationship throughout it all.

I'm conscious of it, and it's nothing that I can really fix at the moment, but it must be really challenging for them. But the flip side I think is that a lot of our work, it does require us to travel and collaborate with different areas. And so it also brings an opportunity to leverage the different locations.

It definitely doesn't help with the cost of living and obviously having to maintain two households. But I do see some of those, the younger researchers, focused on making it work. Although I do wonder when for those that choose to have children, or if they're wanting to be near aging parents and things like that– there's other complexities that come with it to have that network of support around you as well.

Michele Ong

Absolutely, but I mean, the fact that you guys are thinking about this that's already miles ahead of so many other people because it's such a common issue that people take for granted, especially when it comes to career development.

The fact that you're trying to place couples is great because commonly in these areas you do end up with couples who are in similar or adjacent fields, so it lends itself to co-placement, but also it's just a massive struggle when some of them end up having to make that choice, literally the two-body problem, about whose career is gonna be put on hold while someone else's advances, and they're having to play tag on that and whether that's a viable strategy over the long term.

So yeah, that these considerations are being made and that there's such an awareness of the personal situations and not just the professional situations of the people involved in these teams is incredible.

Asha Stabback

Yeah, I think,well, ICRAR certainly– I can only speak on the– the UWA side. So we are a joint venture with Curtin. But as the current acting chair of our diversity, equity, and inclusion committee, I'm just riding on the coattails of the powers that be before me that really paved the way and the things that they've done. And it really is an inclusive environment.

Inclusive environments support everyone and their circumstances

Asha Stabback

It's interesting, we often think, oh, we need to have gender– whether it be equity or at least representation of females in predominantly male-dominated areas. But one of the teams, which have now successfully recruited a number of women into the area, but majority of them are parents and the fathers arejust as involved.

They've taken parental leave, like extended like several months off. They leave for school pickup. And so I have found that it's been one of the easiest work environments to be in, even though there are less women than other areas that I have worked in before because like my son's a cricketer and they knew that my life throughout the summer revolves around his cricket schedule, you know, that I need to take him to training and if I'll be uncontactable for half an hour or whatever it is for driving, but then they'll often see me either taking a video call like parked in the car, or sitting in like a little office or wherever I can do, because it doesn't stop me from doing my, my job.

No one says anything when I come in or leave because we're all like that. We're all working on various global initiatives.

So they'll leave early and then have the afternoon with the kids or do whatever you know they need to focus on and then they'll jump back online for things later in the evening as Europe sort of wakes up or the US and things like that as well. So, you know, I think some of these more flexible environments enable you to create the work environment that suits your needs as well.

It's a very inclusive and flexible work environment where I am now, and I have not experienced that to this extent before.

Michele Ong

Yeah. And there's always two sides of the coin to having to work on a global schedule, but I've always found Perth in particular, but Australia in general, very conservative in terms of flexible timezone kind of operating schedules because people will get their stuff done.

And it doesn't mean that just because it's within set hours that it's gonna get done better than having a more flexible schedule, and clearly it's able to be done because all the work being done in astrophysics is a global effort. You're working in multinational teams across several timezones at once, and yet somehow things get done.

Asha Stabback

I know. It's– I have worked in work environments where you are really treated like a child, you know, needing that permission to do it. But I think when you've got good leadership and frameworks in place and you are treated like an adult, you just get on and get your work done.

So yeah, I found it really refreshing to be in this sort of team environment. And whilst we can be a little bit scattered at times and there can be a lot of travel, at the same time everyone's got these really fascinating lives and things that they're involved in and things that they're working on.

And I like that people know. I mean, last year I was renovating my kitchen and people knew that I was renovating it because I was like, I just need to be at home, or I just feel like I can, and um, and I like that I didn't have to pretend to be someone else.

No one said anything and, you know, except for like, oh, how's the kitchen coming along? Or are you enjoying it? And I really liked that there was no judgement around that. There was no question as to whether I was getting all my work done.

Because I knew I was, and I was still contactable. But, you know, I think that in the past we had to keep our lives quite separate. And I appreciate that some people do choose to keep their private lives private, but I like that, that's you know, appreciated and reciprocated as well.

Michele Ong

That's awesome. And you know, it's just life. Life happens.

Asha Stabback

Yeah.

The International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research

Michele Ong

So we'll rewind a bit actually, because I haven't addressed, you know, asking what is the International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research?

Asha Stabback

Yeah, it's, um, so a research centre, it's a joint venture between Curtin and UWA that was established in 2009. So the Square Kilometre Array was a global bid to build the biggest telescope in the world looking at the southern sky. So having it in the southern hemisphere, and WA in particular, lends itself to having a very dark sky. A lot of quiet space.

There's two different types of telescopes that are being built. And so we've got part of it, which is over here in WA, several hundred kilometres northeast. And then the other part is over in the Karoo, so in South Africa.

The Square Kilometre Array Observatory (SKAO)

Asha Stabback

So the Square Kilometre Array is, or SKAO, is a global operation. And different countries have contributed tens of millions of dollars to be a part of the construction of the telescope. And the bid to have, SKA here in WA would, to the state government was— And that's federally funded, actually building of the telescope— We will work to support different contracts for the construction of it that would be based with teams here in WA. So bringing in more capability, and I guess for them to see that return on investment as well.

But at the same time, having scientists actually preparing for the science that'll come from these new telescopes as they come online.

It's a similar setup to the European Southern Observatory, ESO, where there's not just the science, but there's also, on the UWA side, there's the data intensive astronomy. The data pipeline. So taking the data or the signals and things like that, processing it, and getting that data ready.

We have an astrophotonics team, which is looking at the communication side, and timing and sequencing of that data coming through. And on the Curtin side, it's the engineering team, so there's a phenomenal team of engineers and software developers as well, working on, on that. And then you have the science of both sides.

So the way it's just naturally sort of fallen into place is where the different research strengths are for the different universities. There's no like competing in terms of the science because we're doing different things.

So we look at different ways to collaborate. But having this joint venture has reaped a lot of benefits particularly to the state. Building that capability, promoting opportunities to be working in the space and astronomy sector, for those that are interested in STEM, and the reason we continue to be funded. And at the moment we've got further funding from the state government through 'til 2030.

The broader economic and community impact of investment in space and astronomy

Asha Stabback

So that will be 20 years of a research centre being funded by a stategovernment. It's a big investment, but part of that is that we will actually take these skills and translate them and transfer them out into, to industry as well.

So that's part of, a big part of my role, is helping connecting up the researchers with industry sectors and looking where they can transfer those. But we've also got an education and outreach team that have been doing phenomenal work in the regions and promoting to the communities.

You often see sidewalk astronomy where they take the big telescopes out, AstroFest, which is generally held each year, that brings everyone together for a night of astronomy as well. So it's multifaceted.

We have students from Master's, PhD, and then through to postdocs as well. So yeah, there's about 250 of us across the two nodes, so quite a substantial size. But then you've also seen with SKAO, they've got their headquarters here based in the CSIRO building. We've got CIRA based in astronomy which is the national team, but they've got more and more of their team here, and then as I mentioned, AusSRC, which is the regional data centre for Australia, are also based in UWA, and Curtin, and CSIRO as well. So we're starting to see a strong concentration of these astrophysicists, engineers, scientists coming together and we regularly do things together as well, which is great.

So yeah, we are getting a lot of transfer of knowledge, skills, experiences from that perspective.

For anyone that's not even aware that we're building the telescopes here, I think we've got something like about a 35% recall rate of SKA. But that's with the Wajarri Yamaji and, and they work really closely— we talked about community engagement— the relationship is very strong between SKAO, and there's a huge investment to ensure that we really care for the country and treat that land with respect, but also provide a lot opportunities for the growth and development of the local community there and self-determination as well.

So there is that strong focus, particularly from SKAO, and some incredible work that the Curtin team have been doing on that particular land.

Michele Ong

Yeah, that's amazing. And just, all the stuff that you've just described, it's fully all encompassing. As you said, it's multidisciplinary, it touches so many different parts of the community, even if we're not aware of it, like all of this is generating so much growth in STEM across all fields.

As well as, giving us a lot more to work with in WA because, and recently it just feels like a WA state pitch, but WA is positioned, or it's not even positioned, like we are naturally in an area that is ideal for all of this sort of work because we do have the space. We have lots of wide open spaces that are beautifully quiet for radio astronomy. Pretty dry as well, which makes it even better for the telescopes 'cause they hate the water. All these things makes WA perfect for this sort of development, this sort of collaboration and work to build more out of what we can do. And yeah, we'll be getting into what translation and impact actually means, but there is also so much more opportunity for people to be able to translate their skills in so many different amazing ways to be able to apply it in different fields.

Translation and impact and finding happy places

Michele Ong

So coming to that now, what is translation and impact?

Asha Stabback

It's interesting because it's not clearly defined. It's not like you can do a specific degree or programs and things like that. So if I look across others that have got similar roles to me, we all come from very different backgrounds. Which is great.

So, some may come more from a legal or governance, you know, the contracts and working on the complexities of those engagements with the different industry partners. Some have come from more of a science communication background. We have engineers from a project management perspective,

project officers that have got backgrounds, you know, more in the finance side. So it is quite broad.

The skill that I bring is really around the workforce development. That's something that I have focused on large scale programs in mining for many, many years and helping people, and taking them on that journey, supporting their careers to develop their skills and also transfer their skills into different sectors as well.

So some of the programs that I'm leading at the moment is supporting our students, particularly the PhD students, with engaging with industry, our researchers as well, and trying to get a bit creative as to what we could actually do. 'Cause for some of them it, it is quite tricky. There's not a natural translation of their particular area of expertise. But we have had some fantastic examples.

One of our astrophysicists was sharing that he happened to be at an event and it was all on eye health and they were talking about the challenges that they have with detecting when there's pressure in the brain and they're looking at a new algorithm and tool that would use the eyes and then testing the pressure there.

And so he was able to say, well, that's similar to what we do when we're looking at various gases in the galaxies and things like that. And this algorithm that he's now working on with them, it's potentially going to support eye health.

We've got another team that, coincidentally, we were co-located with the Cooperative Research Centre on Honey Bees. And again, they were saying, well, we don't know how to wrangle this data, and like the astrophysicists are like, Ooh, data, like, we love that.

Like, oh, oh, me. I know this.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, for me, I'm like, oh, you know, do you wanna come along to this event? And they're like, no, that requires me to talk to people. You know, my happy place is being here with multiple screens and everything. Whereas I'm like, oh, that's my idea of torture. But I'm more than happy to make the introductions to them and look at those opportunities as well.

But we've also got what has led to quite a big collaboration with what's now a startup called Y-Trace. And determining the honey and whether it's marketed as being Jarrah or Manuka or whatever type, we can actually use some of the techniques that we've done for star spectroscopy, and then actually looking at that from the honey, and determining whether it is what they say it is. So, protecting all of these native food products, including wattle seeds.

We have these fantastic examples of where our different teams have been able to see that the skills that they have in a particular area can be applied to a different topic.

But I, I find it needs to be something that– there needs to be a personal connection to it. There needs to be a personal interest in some of these things. Some of the opportunities that I bring may be not aligned to their values, so they won't entertain that. And defence being one of the areas we are very mindful of.

We do some work around communications but anything that's military applications we wouldn't be interested in. So it's also important to recognise the limitations of their interest and then exploring where we can actually transfer those skills.

But I think also for me, one of the things that I can relate to is, even getting into the space sector, and being able to navigate that and data was one of the key points I've worked in for a partnership role with a tech company. I'd been in around lots of different researchers and then an opportunity to set up a new research centre over it.

Curtin focused on space data, so that was more looking the other way. So that was using satellite imagery. But I was able to bring in my network of contacts and look at how we could transfer those skills into that area.

So for me to sort of go from working predominantly in mining, the resources sector. When I first started at UWA many years ago, I was working in health and medical sciences, then I went into industry, and then tech, data, and then space.

Space Situational Awareness and looking after the skies above

Asha Stabback

You know, and then I traversed around there and went from earth observation, and using the satellite imagery and what we could actually do in that space to protect earth, to–

I know you sort of asked me off-air around, you know, what is SSA, what is Space Situational Awareness? And so, I guess when the space agency were looking at the different areas in which they were going to be a part of space, you know, growing up. Australia would never really recognise that we could have a space sector.

There was no space agency. The only sort of jobs I guess people knew was to become an astronaut. But then when a number of people lobbied around to establish the space agency here in Australia, and I think it must be about seven years or so old now. And it was actually, well, mining was probably the biggest one in remote operations.

So a lot of NASA people were coming here looking at how we were monitoring these— mission control— from Perth and having all these trucks and things like that operating on the mine sites. And certainly for those that have been in the Pilbara, I guess it's similar to being on Mars with the heat, and dust, and red dirt.

So they were like, okay, well that's a skill that we have. It's a capability that we have. Communications is again, another big strength that we have here. Earth observation, there's a whole range of different things. And so they, they looked at the different pillars of research capability that we have here or that we could actually compete in on a global scale. And so earth observation was one of them, and I worked in that area for a while.

So Space Situational Awareness, it's also called space traffic management. Essentially these satellites that are going around, you need to make sure they don't collide into each other.

There's limited things that you can do when you've got these things that are sort of circulating in orbit. And a huge challenge I think that we have coming up is, how many satellites are actually up there. And for the astronomers, it's not good. It interrupts their, um–

Michele Ong

Getting in the way.

Asha Stabback

Yeah, it's, um, you know, there's a need to have a level of ethics and governance and I invited Professor Deen Sanders, who's a Worimi man from New South Wales, an elder who, his role is really to share that focus on ethics, sustainability, and what we can actually do to protect from an indigenous perspective.

It's not– Country, is not just the land that we're on, it's the skies as well. And it really interrupts their ability to care for Country because they're guided by the night sky. So, having these different things, bringing people's awareness to thinking more broadly as to what do we need to do?

What do we need to take into consideration? Where are the opportunities? And at the same time, how can we progress in an ethical and sustainable approach? So I was able to bring together a quite a large event, bringing thought leaders and researchers from different sectors to really think about what are some of those challenges and what are we all doing?

What are the ways that we're tracking the satellites and things as well. And then, navigated into astronomy after that.

There's a place for everyone in Space

Asha Stabback

So I've had several different components around space and astronomy, but certainly not where I thought my career would even remotely go.

Certainly not when I was at school, but for now I get to, yes, say proudly that I'm part of the space sector and getting to go to these cool events and see the things that are happening and hopefully be a part of contributing to people actually wanting to study STEM related topics.

You know, there's a lot of evidence that shows that astronomy and space can actually keep people captivated and engaged in different STEM disciplines, even if they're not planning to ultimately have a career in space or astronomy, but at least they can continue learning the different topics that are related to it.

And that's not to say that it's all around maths and sciences. There's the social sciences, there's the humanities that actually comes with that as well, and we've got biologists working on plants in space. Like all these different things are really pushing us to think about how could we survive there or what's needed. But that transfer of knowledge is also coming back down to like, well, how do we, you know, if we need to miniaturise these things or make them really lightweight to put them on spacecraft, or what benefits do we get here on Earth as well. So those learnings there's countless examples, you know, wifi and things like that. They have come from pushing the limitations and seeing what else is out there and what could be done.

Thinking about responsible deployment of technology

Michele Ong

Yeah, absolutely. And even being captivated by space because thinking bigger allows us to kind of look inwards again. Not just from the translation aspect, but if we can think about the potentials, it's very philosophical, but if we can think about what we can do out there, how we can protect out there and bring those learnings back here, it just benefits everybody and it becomes this circular economy of being able to feed back into the community, all the things that we can do, demonstrating that we are actually connected beyond the atmosphere.

And just you talking about the fact that we do need to think about what's up there, not just in terms of traffic, but in terms of the social impact of that is going to be keeping me thinking busily for a while.

Asha Stabback

Yes. Well there are examples of where, um, some people have chosen to put various objects up into space just for the thrill of it.

Michele Ong

And it's getting easier to do as well. It's expensive, but it's becoming more accessible than it used to be. And people are putting up satellites from like private businesses or even just private individuals. There are citizen scientists who started off as citizen scientists doing these sorts of things and have now gone into commercial.

But it just demonstrates how easy it is to do that sort of stuff these days. And yeah, we need to think about the impact of all of those choices.

Asha Stabback

Yeah, and we're starting to see the safe reentries. And we talk about litter, and pollution, and recycling and things like that. But, for some of these things where they're intentionally demolishing things up in space, so then you've got this uncontrolled debris circulating– like at least when you've still got power in a lot of these, the objects up there you can navigate or you can move and there's a lot of space manoeuvres happening, you know, each day there's people that are tracking these multi-billion dollar satellites that are up there. And you think about what would actually happen if we didn't have it, like just the number of things that do rely on having various satellites.

But I think that making sure that we are more purposeful about what we're putting up there and why and how do we actually safely bring that back to earth. Where do we apply those learnings and the number of astronauts that say like, when they actually have that chance to go up and then look back at earth and to seeing, seeing it and realising that it's boundaryless really, you know, we put all these different things in place, but we really need to protect the whole planet and the skies above as well. So.

Michele Ong

Absolutely.

​

What the space sector is and finding your space in space

Michele Ong

Cutting back into the bits where you were talking about the, I guess we call it the pipeline, but it's not really the pipeline. It's about the people coming through and being able to see the potential in having a place in space and astronomy. What are some of the most common questions or misconceptions that you've observed in communicating with the community?

Asha Stabback

I mean, we certainly get a lot of people that don't realise that they could have a career as an astrophysicist. So that's one thing that, you know, we've got a number of them, that are are gainfully employed.

I mean, and look, it can be challenging, but for those that are really passionate, like, I think that that is a great career path.

But also what we do have is people that study astrophysics, but they don't intend to stay in that, but they're doing it because they're able to do something that they're really enjoying. So, I think that can be, I guess, a misconception. Also, I think actually what an astrophysicist does. They generally don't just stand outside and look out at the nice sky and things like that. It is very data-driven.

And so for some people that's not actually what they wanna do. And, and we do get a lot of students that come through for work experience, and they think that they're just going to be out there stargazing all the time, but once they sort of appreciate some of the other things that come with it, they're like, oh, actually I don't wanna do that. And on the flip side, others think this is great and this is something that I love, you know, data and visualisation, and creating these different images and things like that, and they do want to pursue it. So yeah, I think that the–

I mean it always sounds very cool, like it's like I get to work with these astrophysicists and quantum physicists and–

It sounds very smart.

I know, I know. I've, I've got some of the most intelligent people around me. It's, it's quite incredible. But yeah, I think people are just surprised that we're actually doing it here in Perth. Like we have got globally recognised like researchers in these different areas. And it's right here.

And people think that they need to go abroad or that things are happening elsewhere, but it is actually happening here in Perth. There are these opportunities.

I think the space sector will be going through various changes. There hasn't been the level of support from a federal perspective for a number of years now.

So, the funding that is there is very limited. And so I think that that will lead to some challenges. But also, we're pretty resourceful and resilient.

But I think that what I try and encourage people to do is get really clear on what you're good at. You know, what are the things that you enjoy? And then look at the different sectors that actually can benefit from the skills and the experiences that you bring as well.

Yes, they are very intelligent, but that's not to say that it's inaccessible. If you really enjoy it, which obviously a lot of people do, you can learn and you can stay engaged in that pathway. So I also don't want people to think that it requires a certain level of intellect and things like that. If you're passionate about these things, in the science, find a mentor, find someone to help you get involved.

You know, we've got virtual telescopes that we use, and people, when they get to create their own image and things like that, it's a bit of a magic sort of moment. And so I think that, don't underestimate yourself. Because a lot of that intelligence does come from having a passion and an interest.

What advice would you give someone who would like to do what you do, and what should they ignore?

Michele Ong

That's awesome. And you've kind of answered my next question, one of our my last questions, which is, what advice would you give someone who'd like to do what you do and what advice should they ignore? Because it really is all of that that you just said. It's about finding your passion.

It's about following that curiosity to figure out more, and even, you know, your own career examples showing your transition through different industries and pulling all of that together. And it's also applicable in your role to be able to say, look, well, you know, the impact of this work can be anywhere.

We can be in medicine, we can be in plant biology. All of that comes back down to Earth and goes up into space to help the astronauts. So it really is how far do you wanna pursue this curiosity of yours?

Asha Stabback

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me it's the area that I do want to make more of an impact is certainly working with our First Nations and the science that they have. We're barely like scratching the surface of it. And there's some phenomenal astrophysicists that share some of those stories.

And, you know, we've got people with these computers and the amount of data and statistics, and all these different things that they know when there's going to be an eclipse or something like that. And you read these stories and for over 60,000 years there's people that have held that knowledge and they actually know when there will be an eclipse and there's ceremonies that are all planned around it and everything like that.

And you just think, my goodness, like that is a lot of knowledge that they're retaining over thousands and thousands of years. That is phenomenal. And

in some cases, you know, almost more accurate than us particularly from an observational perspective.

So for me it's, you know, that magic of getting out there and it's restorative as well. Looking out at the night sky and finding the Southern Cross or whatever you might, you know, like seeing. Even seeing the International Space Centre, flying overhead, just suddenly– it puts things in perspective and you suddenly feel very small.

But I think we can all have an impact in whichever area we are choosing. And for me, I think that's partly why I love like my career and the role that I have now because I can choose which area I want to have an impact on. There's obviously core operational things that need to get done, but there's flexibility within the role as well.

And so for those that are wanting to get into the sector, but don't necessarily see themselves as having a science background. Look at the skills that you do bring, you know, look at the perspective that you do bring and the value you can bring. Because we need to have these diverse perspectives within an inclusive environment to make a difference in whatever area that may be.

Michele Ong

And I mean, it gives you perspective about how small we are, but how much potential we all have and

Asha Stabback

yeah, I think that's a great way to finish off our conversation.

So thank you so much, Asha, for speaking with me today. It's been so great catching up with you and talking about your journey through so many different spaces to bring you to where you are today.

If people would like to know more about ICRAR and your work, where can they go?

Pretty much on the website. So icrar.org, so I-C-R-A-R. And yeah, have a look at some of the work that's being done. If you've got kids that are interested in space, get involved in the micro-credentials that we offer as well.

Michele Ong

Amazing. I love that. And when AstroFest comes back again, it's such a great event. So if you're Perth and you're around during AstroFest, just check it out. It's a free event and so much fun.

Cool. Okay. So thank you again Asha, and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day.

Asha Stabback

Excellent. Thank you.

Michele Ong

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