The justice system and community health with Hayley Passmore

Michele Ong

The justice system is part of community health with more overlap than one might expect. So just as we've done with health care, how do we shift our approach in justice settings to be more preventative and proactive rather than reactive? It starts with support, not only for the justice involved, but for those providing support in the front lines as well.

Dr Hayley Passmore is a lecturer in criminology at the University of Western Australia Law School and a justice health researcher. Join us as we speak about Haley's journey to justice health, reframing how we support youth and neurodisability in our communities, and how these human-centred approaches create better outcomes for everyone.

I'm Michele Ong, and this is STEAM Powered.

Michele Ong

So good afternoon, Hayley. Thank you so much for joining me on STEAM Powered. I'm really looking forward to speaking with you about your journey.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Thank you so much for inviting me on, Michele. I'm really happy to be here.

Hayley's journey stemming from an interest in law enforcement.

Michele Ong

Amazing. So we'll get right into the start of your journey. And what motivated you to pursue psychology and criminology at university?

Dr Hayley Passmore

Well, as many people do when they're a teenager, I was really interested in true crime podcasts. I would, you know, watch documentaries and TV. There was a show years ago, which many of my students now don't they– they've never even heard of called The Bill, The UK police based show. And as a teenager, I thought, you know, I'm pretty observant. I really like to understand people's behaviour. I like to, you know, figure out why people are acting certain ways or what's led up to a particular instance in their life. So I thought maybe I'd really be a good police officer.

As soon as I finished high school, I thought, okay. I'm gonna get a degree first, get some life experience under my belt, started studying criminology. And in my first year, I thought, oh, being a police officer is definitely not for me. You know, there are lots of things in the criminal justice system that need changing, and I thought, okay. I really wanna put my energy into a different avenue working in the criminal justice space to support people who are justice involved.

So I started studying criminology, added on psychology after that, and then randomly, but still linked, did my PhD pediatrics and child health, but within the youth justice sector looking at disability and health outcomes of kids. So a little bit of a mix and match of a few different disciplines, but, yeah, diverse perspectives that I'm really grateful for.

Michele Ong

Amazing. And they are all very complimentary because they always talk about how a lot of these issues with getting involved in the justice system do start at a young age, about your exposure or experience or, you know, any kind of numbers of things that can draw you into that space. So it really is all connected.

An unexpected entry into the health space.

So where did you see yourself taking this career in the legal end of things once you decided that police work wasn't for you?

Dr Hayley Passmore

Honestly, my career to date, I just call a series of, you know, happy accidents, and there's very little planning that goes in on my behalf, but I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I've had thus far.

I was someone who never thought I would work in the health space, in the medical space. It was something that you know, I've always, always had a little bit of fear around being involved in, in medical spaces. But when I started I saw this PhD opportunity over a decade ago now, and it was looking at disability, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, specifically amongst young people in youth detention. And I thought that's a little bit outside of where I thought I'd go, but maybe I'll give it a shot.

Ended up applying for it even after the cutoff had closed and was fortunate enough to get the opportunity and really opened my eyes into child health research, medical research, And I just feel so grateful to have been exposed to that particular stream of research and to be learning from some of Australia's best epidemiologists and public health experts and clinicians.

What an amazing opportunity to get at, at such an early stage of my career.

The broad impact of health in society.

Michele Ong

That's amazing. But all of these areas, like, for a lot of people, health care isn't really the space that they're in, but a lot of health care does involve policy and regulatory and social. So there's so many other aspects that people can explore, as you discovered, in how we are all impacted by the decisions that are made in policy and in community. So, yeah, it, it is an incredible opportunity for that.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Absolutely. If we think about the social determinants of health, which are all of the things that are in our environment and our society that impact on our health and well-being, so things like our access to education, how stable our housing is, whether we have access to housing, employment, for example, how much financial means or resources there are in our home or in our community, all of these things impact our well-being. Certainly not just within kind of primary health services, but all of those social services that support us, all of the community agencies and government agencies who need to tap into all of those different aspects of our life, they really need to be aware and consider health needs and well-being across all, you know, all of those spectrums.

So, yeah, absolutely, health is not just for those very typical medical professionals that we might be thinking about.

The need to recognise and support neurodisability earlier in development.

Michele Ong

So getting into more of that, what are some of the key issues that we're facing at the moment in terms of, you know, this support pipeline and youth justice with people with newer disabilities?

Dr Hayley Passmore

So that's a big question. There are lots of different parts to that.

If I focus, if I just kind of narrow my focus at the moment to young people who are getting into contact with the justice system in Australia, what are some of the key issues for them. And one of them, like you've said, is neurodivergence, unsupported disability, and unrecognised disability in a lot of instances. We really need to be focusing on recognising a young person's developmental needs much earlier than before behaviours come up later that might need a justice response or might, you know, indicate a justice response.

So if we have young people with disabilities, developmental delays, for example, we should be recognising that in school or even much earlier than school. And then we should be providing wraparound support for children and young people and their families in order to make sure that at least their developmental needs and their health needs and their well-being needs are supported.

The prevalence of neurodisability in the justice system.

So that's something that we're seeing time and time again. The prevalence rates of young people who are neurodivergent in the justice system are incredibly high in Australia. And I can talk more about that research, but that's one of the key issues that I think recognising disability and supporting it much earlier.

Michele Ong

Yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah, I would, I would love to hear more about that research into those numbers and, you know, what kind of factors or triggers are leading to those numbers being so significant.

Root causes and what early intervention through meeting needs can look like.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. So firstly, we need to acknowledge the history of colonisation in this country and how we have caused incredible harm as white people with white policy, incredible harm to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people across the country. And we've really put in punitive measures that are overcriminalising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, and particularly young people are at risk of this with over policing, over surveillance. And then those systemic biases increase at every single stage of the justice system. So we still have a lot of systemic racism and oppression that is existing.

What we also need to consider, like I was talking about earlier, is the disability with young people. And if young people don't have their needs met early in life, so if they're not able to access education that feels inclusive for them or feels safe and appropriate for them, they're more likely to disengage. And that might result in not turning up for school or not really participating actively in schooling. And they might be looking for community and connection elsewhere. And in some cases, that might be that they're hanging out with other older teenagers or older youth who didn't go to school.

And they might be looking for coping mechanisms for untreated disability or untreated mental illness as well. And then we might be looking at substance use here. So there's lots of different confounding factors that could be going on for young people. And the reality in or the, the best response is to just meet young people where they're at in terms of what their needs are and invest back into communities who are ready and willing to provide that wraparound support and all of the services to support a young person's well-being, as opposed to going down traditional justice methods, which are about punitive approaches, which we know just aren't going to be effective, particularly for young people with disability.

Michele Ong

Yeah. And it's the issue of treating the symptoms, but not the cause of any of these issues. And a lot of these are community and social. So Yeah. You know, we talk about how in other areas, not just in health, about youth looking for community, looking for belonging, looking for outlets for whatever it is, whether it's behavioural or disabilities that are unrecognised. And it leads to radicalisation of those behaviours, either politically, ideologically, or socially.

So it brings it all the way back further from trying to, I guess, create that sense of community and a safe space for people to be able to explore what it is that they need to explore before they can get to the point where people are going, well, you'd you're not important. What you're feeling isn't valid. And as you said, it leads them to seek other communities that will support them that may not be positive.

The benefits of justice reinvestment models.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. And there is a lot of evidence for justice reinvestment models, which is about putting in early prevention and diversion methods, boosting elements of our community that we can target those social determinants of health and support a young person in education, employment if they're at that age, access to health care, access to all of the social support that they might need. So if we do that really well, then we don't need that reactive approach, which is, you know, criminal justice system involvement down the end of the track. So it's really about investing back into communities and listening to what young people and their communities are telling us that could be done differently.

Tailoring for communities with proactive and not punitive methods.

Michele Ong

Yeah. And also, recognising the fact that different communities will have different needs, and there isn't an all-in-one approach that you can apply to every single group.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. And there are many incredible community organisations, aboriginal led organisations across the country doing phenomenal place based localised work, particularly in the youth diversion space and in just, you know, supporting young people. And it's important that we look to those organisations and look at the evidence around those methods as opposed to the tough on crime approaches, which the evidence over decades internationally and nationally tells us is simply not going to work in order to reduce youth crime and to keep communities safe.

Giving people choices and alternatives but also recognising the privilege and systemic bias that can hinder them.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. And, you know, it's, it's an area where, like, we could delve into this forever just because of the way that the messaging works when it comes to these sorts of punitive or reactive things is the same sort of way that people do it's like the reverse psychology thing. Like, the more you wanna push people away from doing a thing, the more they want to do the thing.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. But sometimes it's also a lack of opportunity to do differently. Right? If we're talking about a young person who has experienced so much vulnerability, they have backgrounds of adverse childhood experiences, how we categorise trauma, childhood trauma. It's about what opportunities have that young person had and how could we provide more opportunities in a different pathway.

Michele Ong

And showing them that they do have choices and options irrespective of where they are.

And I've spoken with a few other people in terms of the education aspect, and it's about people who are in regional communities or isolated spaces, however that isolation occurs, where they don't realise that the bound– they've they've given themselves a boundary that doesn't exist Because they could look outside. There could be other opportunities they could seek for fulfillment or for education or for aspiration that they don't realise that they have.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. For sure. And if you have those other added layers of discrimination and oppression, then it does also reduce the opportunities that will come your way. And there is a lot of privilege in living in urban areas with a lot of access to support services where that's not going to be replicated in other areas across the country.

Michele Ong

Even just being able to get people to come talk to you about career options or, you know, you get the professionals to come say, you know, this is what it is like at my day at work. You don't really have the range of people who will be available and able to get to those areas to speak to those things.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. Absolutely.

Reframe Training

Michele Ong

Leading on from, you know, the opportunities in the support pipeline, a few years ago, you pioneered an incredible program called Reframe Training with a focus on management and support of the young people with, you know, disabilities. So can you tell us a bit more about this program and its objectives?

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. Sure. So I'll tell you the wider research project that it was within, which I started to talk about earlier and then went off on a different path. So I was part of a really large team of health professionals and researchers based on-site at what was the time our only Western Australian youth detention centre, and that's called Banksia Hill Detention Centre. We were based there for a few years, and we were doing really comprehensive health assessments of the young people and their development.

So we had a paediatrician, neuropsychologist, speech and language pathologist, and an occupational therapist. We also worked really closely with translators from the Aboriginal Languages Interpreting Service of Western Australia to make sure that kids were always assessed in their first language. And through those comprehensive developmental assessments, we found the highest amount of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder to ever be diagnosed in a justice setting worldwide, which was 36% of our number of young people, which was 99. But that's something that we were there to look for FASD. Through those developmental assessments, though, we found that 89% of all of those young people that we assessed, regardless of whether they had FASD or not, had at least one severe neurodevelopmental impairment.

And many of the young people had three or more, five or more, some young people had seven areas of neurodevelopment impaired in the severe range, which if you're interested in the technicalities, it was minus two standard deviations from the mean. So we're talking about young people with brains, 89%, that are not typically developed, but they have gone through all of these justice processes and all of these other services as well, child protection, education, all these other programs and agencies, and they've been expected to act in a way as if they were typically developed and that they would be able to comprehend and participate in an inclusive way. And that's simply not the case when the right supports and accommodations haven't been put in place.

So with all of that data from our clinical assessments of the young people, it was my job on the study and, and what my PhD was on to develop training resources for frontline youth justice staff members to be aware of disability, to be aware of specific conditions like fetal alcohol spectrum disorder or FASD, but more so instead of focusing on any label or diagnosis, to be aware of what might it look like in terms of behaviours if a young person is struggling in an area of neurodevelopment? And how can I, as a frontline staff member engaging, supporting, communicating with this young person, adapt my style to make sure that I'm being as inclusive and accessible as possible for these young people?

So I ended up working really closely with the Banksia Hill Detention Centre workforce. I even shadowed them for their full 12-hour days, 7AM till 7PM, for over half a year to get an understanding of what their role was like, what opportunities to do differently are there within that centre. And I also conducted lots of interviews with young people to ask them what they think could be done differently. And all of that information, along with the clinical reports from our team, fed into the development of Reframe training, which was really trying to be experiential and practical and upskill youth justice workers in the behaviours and potential accommodations or support strategies that they could put in place.

We set that out by areas of brain development. So we had one module on memory, one on language and communication, one on executive functioning. That was eight in total. And yeah, we really tried to kind of bring the frontline justice staff along the journey in terms of, let's get curious about young people's behaviours and let's see if we can start reframing their behaviours from, it's not that they won't do something for us, perhaps they can't.

Filling the gaps in knowledge and training.

Michele Ong

That's awesome. Because for, I guess, a lot of people who aren't neurotypical or who've had neurotypical training, you're not gonna learn to identify these things because you don't know what to look for.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. Absolutely. And you might be really surprised by this. When I surveyed the youth justice workforce at the time, so this was back in 2016 and the results were published in 2018, I asked them if they'd ever heard of some of these conditions that we were talking about.

20% said they had not heard of autism spectrum disorder. 22% said they hadn't heard of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

So these are workforces who are engaging with populations of young people with lots of different needs, and they really deserve to have all of the skills and information about how to support a young person who's neurodivergent that are available.

And we really need to think creatively about how we can make sure staff are upskilled constantly in these areas. It's not just one off and then never again, but it's something that should be ongoing as part of their practice.

The unsupported overlap between justice and community health.

Michele Ong

And I guess it's, it's easy to take for granted that all of these people in these services are working in an extended aspect of community health. Yeah. And it's treated as a separate discipline.

Yeah. So all of that knowledge and education or background that they would need to be able to provide community health support in justice spaces is completely lacking because justice and health are two different things.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. And the frontline staff want this training. Right? I asked them specifically, and it's been replicated in lots of other research before and after mine. These, these findings are that frontline justice professionals want to know more about how to do their job in different and meaningful ways.

And it's just a shame that in many cases, the system and their employer and, you know, the, the organisations that they work within have not been able to resource that training and ensure that that training happens. And it's really critical to any frontline practice with young people.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. Because you don't know what you don't know, which means that you don't know how to respond or react or Approach any of these things that come up that might be considered obstacles in getting people through successfully through the system.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Absolutely. I'll tell you a little story about something I heard a few years ago.

So two years ago, I did something called a Churchill Fellowship, which is where they send Australians overseas to learn about a gap in knowledge that we have here and then bring that knowledge back. And so I was visiting prisons and youth detention centres in five different countries, looking at how they support people who are neurodivergent. And in one prison in The UK, I was chatting to a deputy governor who had been working in the prison system for 35 years, and many of that had been in managing segregation and isolation units.

And he told me that, you know, about three years ago, I started to learn about disability, and we had speech and language pathologists come and work in the prison. So I asked them a lot of questions about how I could do things differently, and what does it mean if someone's struggling with communication, and what even are sensory processing needs, and how can I incorporate that into my practice?

And he said something just clicked when he realised that he'd been working with an adult who really had an issue every time he was asked to do the dishes, and it often resulted in further incidents and, you know, behaviours that they really wanted to avoid. And one day, he just decided to ask that individual, what is it about the dishes that is really upsetting you? And the person said, I hate the texture of the sponge. Texture of the sponge makes my skin crawl. You know? You know that feeling that you get when you hear nails on a chalkboard? Was a sensory yeah. Yeah. It was a sensory aversion for that individual. And, you know, it cost, I don't know, £2 or something to buy a new dish cloth, and they avoided those issues at that particular time in the routine.

So it's as simple as asking someone what their needs are and then providing an accommodation. It's not rocket science.

Making space for questions to cultivate understanding.

Michele Ong

Yep. And for so many issues, whether or not you are neurodivergent, it's about asking.

Just, you know, what's what's wrong with this thing? Or what is it that bothers you about this thing? Or Yes. You know, how do you feel about this thing? And, you know, simple question because some people also don't know that they can say what's wrong, or they can ask for something else.

So it's about both sides being aware that they can ask a question.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Absolutely. And we shouldn't just rely on formal diagnosis as well. You know, the term neurodiversity captures the fact that all of our brains develop differently, and we're all going to have strengths and difficulties and needs, and we're all going to have areas that accommodations would be really helpful for us. And many of the accommodations that we put in place, they're not harmful for someone who doesn't have a particular diagnosis. Mostly they can help all of us, right?

So if we can get better at recognising the fact that we're all different, and like you say, creating spaces where people can either ask for or just simply access without having to ask for whatever needs they have.

Wouldn't that be a really beautiful place for all of us to be coming from?

Michele Ong

Yeah. Certainly. And it's if you accommodate the gap, everyone else is supported as well.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes.

Recognising and sharing the ways supports and accommodations are being made in different spaces.

Michele Ong

Yep. So, you know, there have been several incredible observations that you've just shared there. But in your experience facilitating this training to hundreds of people and as a lecturer in criminology, what is one or, you know, or more of the most interesting or surprising observations that you've made in the area of reframing support?

Dr Hayley Passmore

I always come back to the stories that I hear from people working in these spaces or families supporting individuals in these spaces. There are a lot of incredible supports and accommodations that are being put in place. And often people haven't had the time, the capacity, or the language to recognise what they're doing and why they're doing it. So this isn't about telling everyone that they're doing everything wrong, and they need to do everything differently. Actually, there's often a lot of great things happening in practice that we really need to capture, recognise, recognise in the evidence base as well, and then kind of bolster that in their workplace.

There's a lot of peer to peer learning that goes on in frontline justice workforces, particularly if there is a lack of staff training and formalised staff training. So we need to get better at providing that supervision, those robust learning practises around how we can do things differently. I've recently been doing some research with lawyers, and a lot of the skills that they are using to simplify legal jargon and complex language into ways that their clients can understand if they have a communication difficulty, a lot of those skills are learnt on the job. So again, we need to kind of capture those skills and figure out how we can train people in them earlier in their career journey and ensure that it's an ongoing career long access to a community of practice or, yeah, learning new skills that people can can have access to.

Ensuring people are equipped for their roles in consultation with those who will be supported.

Michele Ong

Yeah. And it's, it's a common issue as well. In health, you have a lot of peer to peer learning because of lack of resources or lack of structured programs that are supported by employers and by the industry.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Mhmm.

Michele Ong

So you end up having a lot of people reinventing the wheel and people not realising that we do have, you know, structured things for this until they either work in a new space where it's being done, or they happen upon it by accident. And a lot of it ends up being self-initiated learning, which puts a lot of pressure on the individuals who just wanna do their job, but now they're basically devoting their entire free time outside of the workplace trying to retrain themselves and reskill themselves as well.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Exactly. And we don't wanna be putting people into roles or industries where they just they feel unequipped to be able to manage, particularly when we're talking about a role that is meant to be supporting young people experiencing a range of complexities. So we absolutely need to take their training seriously and to ensure that we can have the best supports in place for our young people.

The other thing I wanted to highlight is that there are many people with the experience of being neurodivergent who are providing training like this themselves and who are really leading the way in terms of what appropriate accommodations and supports look like.

So in whatever initiatives we have, involving people with experience is of the utmost importance and ensuring as well that all our responses are culturally safe and looking for Aboriginal led initiatives and programs and supports where we can upskill frontline justice professionals in how to do things culturally safely and appropriate, as well as disability and trauma informed.

Michele Ong

100% for making sure that the people you are trying to support are also part of the solutions to provide that support.

Evolution of policy and practice as a result of the research.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. Always.

Michele Ong

So we're kind of touching that again. But zooming back up, in the ten or so years that you've been working in this space and seeing how it evolves, have there been any specific policy or cultural changes that have made a really profound positive or negative impact to the work and the space that you're in?

Dr Hayley Passmore

I think– So we published those findings from the Banksia Hill study.

Our main findings were published in 2018. And our team led by the phenomenal professor Carol Bower, one of the best epidemiologists in our country, did a lot of research translation and policy advocacy work in Western Australia, but nationally as well, because we recognise our research is only ever as good as the people who are reading it and using it. So it can't just sit on a shelf. We really care about the translation of that research into real world outcomes.

One of the key things that we advocated for and has happened in some states and territories is meaningful embedding of health professionals within justice settings. So we said really early on, we need speech and language pathologists who can assess and support a young person's communication needs to be at every single stage of justice involvement. We cannot have police interviews and court proceedings going ahead with incredibly high stakes if a young person is not able to actively participate and be included in that process.

Likewise, we need occupational therapists to look at what sensory needs a young person might need accommodations for, again, because they might simply not be able to participate because of something that could be easily fixed, right, but we're not recognising, we're not assessing and providing support for that. We need really comprehensive assessments of their physical health and their brain function and their cognition and their emotional regulation. So the involvement of psychologists and pediatricians as well to rule out other potential conditions is really important.

So we saw, following the release of our study findings, as well as many other things that were happening around the country, we saw several states and territories implement allied health professionals within youth justice settings quite quickly. Some states have taken longer than others. Sometimes the capacity or the resourcing behind those teams changes. It might grow at some stage of the political cycle and then lessen at others. But the other thing that's happened is that there are a few Aboriginal community controlled health organisations or Aboriginal medical services running or taking over some of the health care provision within youth detention. And so this is all about providing adequate health care and culturally safe health care for some of our country's most disenfranchised young people.

So, yeah, that's probably the best policy outcome that I've seen, well, practical outcome. And I just really hope that those barriers between the health system and the justice system can continue to lessen so that we can work more in collaboration.

Prison health is public health.

Michele Ong

That's awesome. It's a very clear line from being able to see where the problems would have stemmed from and then recognising that this is actually a thing that is going to have a positive impact on the whole community–

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah.

Michele Ong

And extended community in regional and, you know, urban areas. Like, all of these sorts of supports are so helpful.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. And there's been a saying that the World Health Organization put out in several reports, prison health is public health.

And what that means is that people who are in prison are members of our community. They may cycle in and out of prison and community settings, but they are members of our community. Their health and well-being has implications for our health and well-being and vice versa. And we're all in this together, and we absolutely need to be looking out for each other's health and well-being because we are one community.

Michele Ong

Yes. And community health doesn't stop at that entry.

No. We care about young people's health needs when they're in our community. Right? We care about children in our primary schools and in our high schools who are struggling with a range of medical or broader health and well-being challenges.

And as a community, that's something that we– you see time and time again the ways that people are getting behind foundations and charities that are looking after young people's well-being. We should not stop caring simply because a young person is involved with the justice system. They are still our young people, and they still deserve absolutely their health and well-being looked after. And, actually, it's our obligation, our legal obligation, to ensure that their health and well-being is looked after in a safe and appropriate way.

Michele Ong

Yeah. And, you know, no matter what, the justice system is still part of our community, and we can't create that hard line between what support they can have in terms of community health because it's gonna go with them in and out of the system.

Economic and not just moral benefits to being proactive.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. And also, if you– so I often take the moral argument, the social justice argument. If you need to take the economic argument, the financial argument, it saves us money at the end of the day if we provide young people with the support that they need upfront, with opportunities for diversion and with all of their healthcare needs met, as opposed to having to be reactive and the analogy of the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, waiting, let's do something upstream to ensure that young people don't have to reach that ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. The preventative versus the reactive response is always going to be most economically sound.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. Yes. And some of the latest figures in Western Australia are that it's around, you know, $3,000 per young person per day to keep a young person in detention. That is a huge amount of money, and I can think of many other evidence based examples that we could be doing for young people as opposed to locking them up.

Michele Ong

Yep. And imagine where that $3,000 a day could go in terms of providing community health support and opportunities and education or training or whatever it is that they are looking for to be able to stay part of the community and stay part of places where they feel they belong.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Absolutely. And disability support. And, yeah, all of those allied health professionals that I spoke about assessing and providing support, you know, Yeah. There's so much more we could do with that.

Stay curious and critical of political and media messaging around crime and punitive measures.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. So in light of what we've been speaking about today, what's one thing that those of us in the community can do to bridge some of those gaps?

Dr Hayley Passmore

I think one of the key things that I talk about with my criminology students is to get them to stay curious about what they are seeing and reading in the media and in politicians messaging when it comes to tough on crime and punitive approaches.

I think one of the key issues is that there is this big link between what the public want or know about and what politicians think they want and know about and then how the media portrays this. And often, you know, people in the community, they want things to be keeping them safe. They don't necessarily understand or have access to the knowledge around the intricacies of what keeps communities safe. And it's not locking up people and isolating them. It's giving people what they need to live a healthy, happy life so that then there isn't justice involvement down the track.

So that kind of cycle of those messaging, I think we all, as citizens, need to just stay curious and open-minded about what we are reading and to think critically around what the evidence tells us works as opposed to the messaging that might be put out to us when it comes to voting in terms of what works. So that's kind of my number one thing.

Ways to stay independently informed.

There are a number of great advocate organisations who collate a lot of the evidence across Australia and then communicate that in ways to keep you up to date with that evidence. So a national organisation is called Justice Reform Initiative, and they put out lots of reports that are based on evidence that you can make decisions around what you think and how you wanna vote moving forward based on what they're putting out and to be informed. There's also local ones in Western Australia, like Social Reinvestment WA, who are really strong advocates in this space as well. So we can inform ourselves through mechanisms like that.

If you don't feel like reading an academic paper with lots of complex language about these things, there are other mechanisms to inform yourself and lots of great social media accounts as well that put this information in a really easy to comprehend way.

Being mindful of sensationalism and rhetoric that obscures the reality.

Michele Ong

100%. Because we all know that it's so easy to be swayed by the algorithm. And a lot of outlets are there to get people to be outraged. So their wording and their language and the way that they frame certain arguments are going to be leaning towards ways that will make you upset and not critical about what you're reading.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. Absolutely. And the real focus on, you know, in, in the media, like I started off talking about true crime documentaries and podcasts and, you know, Netflix shows and things like that. And there is a lot of things that are sensationalised in the media. And there's also a lot of this kind of good person, bad person rhetoric.

And the reality is most people who are in the justice system have had a series of things happen in their life. And that might be trauma, that might be disability, that might be racism, that have resulted in them ending up there. And it wasn't an active choice. And then certainly not bad people, they're just people who need support.

So really reframing our thinking about what we see and, yeah, reframing our thinking about what we think will be effective in terms of keeping community safe and, and keeping people in prison healthy and well.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. And it yeah. For all of it, it comes down to learning to do your own thinking and not just accepting at face value what a lot of people would try to say because of the tribalism in terms of trying to pick a team. Whose side are you on? Yeah. And understanding that there is a gray, and there's a grey for a reason.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. Yeah. And, again, we're all part of this community. There's no us and them. Unfortunately, we are you know, we, we all sorry. Fortunately, we all have a role to play.

What advice would you give someone who would like to do what you do, and what should they ignore?

Michele Ong

Absolutely. Okay, so one last question before I let you go. What advice would you give someone who'd like to do what you do, and what advice should they ignore?

Dr Hayley Passmore

My advice this comes from a place of privilege though, so I will start with that. I started volunteering in a women's prison in my second year of university, and that experience volunteering and having time with women and their children, so it was within a family support program, was the highlight of my week. And I know, I say that with deep privilege knowing that for these women, they're at some of the most difficult points in their life.

And my, yeah, my advice to many of my students is to seek out volunteering opportunities wherever possible and whenever you have the means to do so. It provides so much to you, and hopefully, in the process, you can provide something back to other people.

Systemic change takes time. Don't get disillusioned and celebrate the wins.

What advice to avoid? I, I think that's really tough. What advice to avoid would probably be thinking that everything is going to happen quickly in the criminal justice space in terms of change, in terms of reducing the systemic barriers. It is something that because of our colonialist structure and the patriarchal structures that our systems are based around and structured around, it is something that is going to take a lot of time to change, and we have to celebrate the small wins along the way, but recognise that things won't happen quickly. So just set try not to have the expectations on yourself and, and, and on the sector that you're working within, and just look for those small glimmers of hope that are really important to hang on to.

Michele Ong

Yeah. When you're working in these sorts of areas, it's easy to become disillusioned that what you're doing isn't making a difference.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. I like, I again, I, I come back to one of my PhD supervisors, Carol Bower, who I spoke about some of the advocacy that she worked towards in the public health space took decades, but it did happen.

And there are ways that research over time, over many years, can lead to policy and practice change. Sometimes it will feel frustrating that it's not as quick as we want it to be and not as simple as we think it should be. But it is certainly worth it, particularly when you're driven by community priorities and community led initiatives.

Michele Ong

And systemic change takes time.

Dr Hayley Passmore

It does.

Michele Ong

I think the one that example that I've been given is when you take into consideration the seat belt in cars. It took three generations. The first generation is like, why do we need this? This is, you know, impacting our rights to be able to do what we want in our vehicles. And then, you know, the next generation is, well, guess I– it might be making some difference. And the third generation doesn't even think about it. It just is and always has been, and it does the thing it's meant to do.

Support and education have always been part of indigenous culture.

Dr Hayley Passmore

That's it. And wouldn't it be great if it was common practice to just support people before they need to get into the justice system, and it was as simple as putting on a seat belt. And I will just say, I live and work on Noongar Whadjuk land. Supporting people and providing education has always been the response when someone's having difficulties in, for Noongar communities. There was never any word for prison or jail.

So those are initiatives that we brought with us as white people. And, yeah, that whole wraparound support thing and bringing people back to their elders and back to country and back to education opportunities has existed for a long time. And we certainly just need to start listening and, and get back there.

Michele Ong

And it's such a wonderful way of being able to approach support by basically telling people we have touchstones, and you can return to them.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yes. Yes.

Michele Ong

So, thank you so much, Hayley, for speaking with me today. This has been such an incredible conversation, speaking about the justice system and how we can support people in this extended area of community health and why it's community health.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on. I always really appreciate when people want to know more about justice and health related issues and the intersection of those two sectors.

There is a lot happening across Australia in this space. So, the more people who get involved and get interested and get passionate about change, the better for us to do the work that we do.

How to find out more.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. So if people would like to know more about what you do and the work that you're building on, where can they go?

Dr Hayley Passmore

So I am a lecturer in criminology at the University of Western Australia. So you can check out all of the different projects. And I'm working with some amazing community partners on a number of different research projects. So you can check out all of that on my UWA profile.

And if you want to get in touch and have a chat, you can find me on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in any of the organisations that I've mentioned, there are a number of great websites out there looking at criminal justice reform, looking at evidence based responses, and looking at the intersection of health and justice. So, yeah, yeah, have a quick have a quick look around and a quick Google because I'm sure you'll find something really meaningful.

Michele Ong

Absolutely. And I'll put what I can in the show notes as well for people to link through. Great. So thank you again so much for speaking with today, and, you know, I hope you have an amazing rest of your day.

Dr Hayley Passmore

Thank you so much, Michele. Likewise. Take care.

Michele Ong

If you enjoyed this conversation, please let me know. Subscribe to this show, leave us a rating, and share this with your geeky or geek curious friends. You can also support STEAM Powered on Patreon under STEAM Powered Show. The link will which also be in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.